Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 10:35:21 08/23/05
Go up one level in this thread
On August 23, 2005 at 03:59:33, Uri Blass wrote: >On August 23, 2005 at 03:27:31, David Mitchell wrote: > >>On August 23, 2005 at 00:44:33, Cesar Contreras wrote: >> >>>"Clone" it's just a moral word. It seams to be intended to distinct "original" >>>from "not original" chess engines. Useless today in my opinion. Maybe a diferent >>>word can serve that good purpose for some more time. >>> >>>The fact it's that this diference don't exist anymore, most programs are pretty >>>unoriginal altought some have more original touches than others. >>> >>>So originality came in the form of some "touches of originality". >>> >>>I see some similarities with "moralily" or "good behavior": >>> >>>* Nobody really know what does "clone" means >>>* Every chess programmer is afraid being named a "cloner" >>>* If you defend a cloner be ready to be named a "cloner" >>>* If you discover a cloner, be ready to be named "X the just" >>>* Every programmer it's tempted to "clone" >>>* Everybody it's ready to punish the "clonner" >>>* Every new strong engine on town must "hide something" >>>* "Clone" meaned one thing 2 years ago, now means something diferent, it's like >>>a fashion thing. >>>* Things that some years ago meaned "to clone", now are bean threated with more >>>open mind. >>>* Everybody agree clonning it's bad (except some freaks out there). >>> >>> >>>My conclusion. >>> * Typical nonsense human behavior. >>> * Legality must be well defined, it's just wrong to punish someone for >>>something that undefinied. >>> >>>PD. I hope this is not copyrigthed. >> >>A "clone" is obviously just a coined word to mean "a copy or non-original" work. >>To actually research all about computer chess, you obviously would want to >>thoroughly inspect every strong (and some weak, as well), source code listing. >> >>But taking Fruit and "translating" it (and apparently Uri doesn't know that >>programs have been written that already do that, to varying degrees of success, >>so it's no big deal), into another language, and making an "alternate" >>evaluation, is much MORE than "fair use", by any legal term. >> >>Presenting such a program as your own work, is just plagerism, and copyright >>infringement. If Uri says it's "Movei based on Fruit", or "Movei, an enhanced >>Fruit chess program", then he might be OK, imo. But he wouldn't be eligible to >>compete in "no clones allowed" tournaments. >> >>Common sense tells us that just because lots of cars have 4 wheels and V-8 >>engines, that doesn't mean they're all "clones". (OK, some are pretty close, but >>that's beside the point, here)! But clearly, taking a Tom Clancy novel and >>adding your own "alternate ending", doesn't let you pass your "new book", off as >>your own book. No way. >> >>Uri seems to have an unlimited number of ways to rationalize his desire to >>produce a Fruit clone, but his arguments in favor of it, are just laundry out >>blowing in the breeze. There's not a whiff of sense to any of them. >> >>No matter WHAT he adds or subtracts from Fruit, his new program, will include >>code largely derived from, and based on, Fruit. As long as he knows that, and >>presents it as such (like Toga's author does), I have no problem with it - in >>fact I think it's a good thing. We might all learn what happens to Fruit with a >>little tinkering Movei-style. Fine! >> >>But please, don't call it an original program, because clearly it's not - it's a >>"clone". > >I can say the following about the latest version of movei. > >1)I learned Fruit king attack and king shelter and I think that I understood it. >2)I added a function to calculate almost the same evaluation as fruit with small >differences(no copy and paste because I have a different data structure). >3)I tested the version with fruit's evaluation and I found it to be probably >weaker than original Movei because it tends to play some unsound >sacrifices(Fruit does not play it probably because of other terms that I still >did not learn). >4)I decided to divide fruit's evaluation by 2 and again it seems that the new >version is weaker. >5)I decided to add movei original king safety evaluation to half of something >that is close to fruit's king safety evaluation and it seems that the result is >that the thing plays better(not sure because I do not have enough games). > >I am not sure if I need to delete all of what I did and to accept the fact that >my evaluation will always not have some knowledge that fruit has in order to be >allowed to play in tournaments. > >I discussed about the extreme case of copying all Fruit's evaluation because I >am afraid that if I continue to do it with other parts of fruit I may be >considered to be a cloner of fruit and not allowed to participate with movei in >tournaments. > >Uri Uri, I didn't read entire thread, but do i understand it correctly that you want to clone Fruit and IQ lobotomize it? If so, why? Vincent
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