Author: Jeremiah Penery
Date: 20:21:57 05/29/99
Go up one level in this thread
On May 29, 1999 at 21:15:25, Mark Young wrote: >On May 29, 1999 at 20:04:33, Terry Presgrove wrote: > >>On May 29, 1999 at 15:31:42, Mark Young wrote: >> >>>On May 28, 1999 at 23:56:35, Terry Presgrove wrote: >>> >>>>Recently I was playing Rebel10c a 30 0 game that went as follows. >>>> >>>>[Event "?"] >>>>[Site "?"] >>>>[Date "?"] >>>>[Round "-"] >>>>[White "?"] >>>>[Black "?"] >>>>[Result "*"] >>>> >>>>1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be2 e5 7. Nf3 Be7 8. >>>>Be3 O-O 9. Qd2 Ng4 10. Bg5 Bxg5 11. Nxg5 h6 12. h4 hxg5 13. hxg5 Qb6 14. >>>>O-O-O Nxf2 15. Nd5 Qd8 16. Qe3 Nxh1 17. Rxh1 Nc6 18. Qg3 Nd4 19. Qh4 Nxe2+ >>>>20. Kb1 f5 21. Qh8+ Kf7 22. g6+ Ke6 23. Qxg7 fxe4 >>>>* >>>>I thought that I had a won game and went straight forward for the win >>>>with 19. Qh4? missing the obvious Bc4 which wins. At the time I had that" I >>>>missed the winning line" mentality and dejectedly aborted the game after move >>>>23.(although it turns out whites position is still quite intersting after 24. >>>>nc7!) >>>> >>>> Anyway to the point .... when I went back over the game with Rebel10b I >>>>discovered several wins for white but to my amazement I discovered that >>>>18. Qg3 was not the best move......but rather( now quite obvious) nf6!! (mate in >>>>10). >>> >>>18. Qg3 in not the best move in term of the shortest mate, but there is a forced >>>win after the move 18. Qg3. (I was finding forced mates in 12 to 15 moves but >>>none longer) Regardless of what it is, black is hopelessly lost after the move >>>18. Qg3. >>> >>> Rebel10b finds in 3:23 on my k6-350 w/100M hash. Crafty 16.6(96M hash) >>>>switches to nf6 at 2:21 but does not find mate in 20 minutes. Crafty 16.8 stays >>>>with Qg3 for 15 minutes . Up until recently I have felt the top computer >>>>programs were at lower GM levels but I am beginning to wonder? Perhaps Dr.Hyatt >>>>is correct? >>> >>>Dr. Hyatt may be correct, but I don't see how this positions shows in a logical >>>way that programs are not of GM strength. Is not 18. Qg3 a forced win?, is not >>>18. Nf6 a forced win? The examples of GM's missing the shortest winning line are >>>to numerous to count, but it has never taken away one rating point from their >>>Elo rating. >>> >> Your point is valid except it is no better than an "A" class human chess >> player playing white in the actual game. I think if (from time to time ) I >>can find the holes in current supposed 2500 rated programs what will a GM do? > >I have to disagree, there is no hole in the move Qg3 it is also a forced win. If >Qg3 loses you would have a point. The computer was playing black. For the few moves before the final position, the computer evaluates its position with a nice + score, because it's up on material. Only very close to the end does it realize the danger. This is the hole in the programs. Jeremiah >>I agree that more data is needed and this one game is just one small example >>of current programs underestimating open KR files. <snip> >>>> >>>>The following is the position after move 17.....how long does it take your >>>>program to find the mate? >>>> >>>>r1bq1rk1/1p3pp1/p1np4/3Np1P1/4P3/4Q3/PPP1B1P1/2K4R w - - 0 18 >>>> >>>>TP
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