Author: Christophe Theron
Date: 18:37:42 10/05/99
Go up one level in this thread
On October 05, 1999 at 16:16:00, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>On October 05, 1999 at 13:51:32, Christophe Theron wrote:
>
>>On October 05, 1999 at 12:10:31, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On October 05, 1999 at 11:28:10, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 05, 1999 at 10:59:56, blass uri wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On October 05, 1999 at 09:25:43, Wayne Lowrance wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On October 05, 1999 at 08:42:36, Bernhard Bauer wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On October 05, 1999 at 07:38:57, Shep wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On October 05, 1999 at 07:26:32, Steve McRiley wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On October 05, 1999 at 04:35:21, Didzis Cirulis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On October 05, 1999 at 02:45:16, Howard Exner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>What is the hardware used and the time control? Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>As usually ;-) 200MMX, 16MB for each program, PB off, 1hour/game (means one hour
>>>>>>>>>>for each program), careful calculations of CPU usage.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Didzis Cirulis
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You mean you do this on one computer??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hmm, do we really have to start this all over again? ;-(
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Actually, it is not necessarily bad to play on a single machine.
>>>>>>>>For one, programs like Fritz and Tiger are very well suited for this as they
>>>>>>>>don't hog CPU time when sitting idle.
>>>>>>>>Secondly, there is no relevant evidence yet that the time management problems
>>>>>>>>caused by "PB off" actually have a significant impact on the outcome -
>>>>>>>>at least not more than the good old statistical problems of playing a series of
>>>>>>>>less than 1000 games... ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>Shep
(snip)
>If you test with PB _ON_ in both programs on one computer, it is possible that
>the TB probes crafty does will slow it down while it blocks for I/O. And the
>_other_ program can consume those cpu cycles that Crafty isn't using. On two
>computers this could never happen, but on one it can, if PB is on.
It has been said from the beginning of this thread that we were talking about 2
programs, both PB off, running on the same computer.
This is mentionned on top of this message, BTW.
> If PB is
>off, then timing changes cause difficulties.
>
>
>>1) That you don't use 100% CPU time when probing tablebases? In this case it's
>>up to you to do whatever you can to use 100% of your CPU...
>
>Care to tell me how to do a read and then not wait on the result? :) I
>_must_ know the result of a TB probe before I go on and start any work at
>this node...
>
>
>>2) That your opponent is going to use some CPU resource while you are accessing
>>the endgame databases? I don't think so. Either the other program runs in a DOS
>>box that is STOPPED when it is in the background, or the other program is
>>guaranteed to be idle when not thinking. So you can access as many files as you
>>want or even sleep for a while, but your opponent is not going to do any
>>computation in your back.
>>
>
>if PB if off, the above doesn't happen, of course, _UNLESS_ you are playing
>one of the chessmaster programs that seem to like to burn the cpu when they
>are sitting idle.
Didzis takes care of that. Before playing two programs, he makes sure that one
is not stealing CPU time from the other.
This is also mentionned on top of this message.
>Testing on _one_ machine is a bad practice, period. There are too many
>variables. way too many.
But for me it looks quite simple.
Each program runs when the other is TOTALLY idle. Permanent brain is OFF in each
program. Careful tests are conducted before the game to make sure one program
doesn't steal CPU time from the other one.
I have been using this way of testing since years and it works fine.
You'd better simply say that you don't want to invest some time to make your
time management work correctly in this case.
But don't bring discredit upon Didzis because your time management is
inappropriate.
>>>Also, if the opponent has no move to ponder (due to a fail high)
>>>then Crafty will get 100% of the machine. And Crafty will _never_ not have a
>>>move to ponder because if it doesn't it will first search for one (puzzle
>>>search) and then ponder that.
>>
>>And the 5 elo points you get from this smart algorithm justifies that Crafty
>>should not be used without PB?
>>
>>
>
>I would think that "If I say so, yes..." I wrote the thing. I know how it
>behaves. I know what assumptions it makes about the computing environment.
>The next thing will be someone with two cpus running two SMP-ready programs
>at the same time. This will _kill_ my program, as it was _not_ designed for
>shared computing resources when doing the SMP search. Should I plan for that
>too? I don't think so...
It sounds like you are implying that testers using only one computer are stupid,
as if they were doing the thing you describe just above.
Thanks Dr Hyatt, I'm one of them.
>>So to be clear you suggest that Crafty should be left out of tournaments played
>>on one computer only?
>>
>>
>
>yes...
Testers using Winboard to play tournaments, as well as Fritz user playing
tournaments inside Fritz, are certainly going to be very pleased to read this.
Christophe
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