Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 07:12:53 01/06/00
Go up one level in this thread
On January 06, 2000 at 01:23:51, Charles Unruh wrote: >On January 05, 2000 at 22:38:57, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On January 05, 2000 at 18:34:15, John Warfield wrote: >> >>>On January 05, 2000 at 14:37:21, Ed Schröder wrote: >>> >>>>>Posted by Chris Carson on January 05, 2000 at 14:08:39: >>>> >>>>>>I say amen to that. How can anybody believe nowadays chess programs can >>>>>>compete with players like: >>>>>> >>>>>>6 2209390 Shirov, Alexei 2722 ESP g 13 >>>>>>7 2000024 Kamsky, Gata 2720 USA g 0 >>>>>>8 2805677 Gelfand, Boris 2713 ISR g 24 >>>>>>9 4100026 Karpov, Anatoly 2709 RUS g 9 >>>>>>10 400041 Adams, Michael 2705 ENG g 48 >>>>>>11 14100010 Ivanchuk, Vassily 2702 UKR g 27 >>>>>>12 703303 Leko, Peter 2699 HUN g 14 >>>>>>13 2900084 Topalov, Veselin 2695 BUL g 36 >>>>>> >>>>>>on 40/2? >>>>>> >>>>>>Maybe they can on 30/all but 40/2? >>>>>> >>>>>>Ed >>>>> >>>>>Ed, >>>>> >>>>>Compete yes, win most of the time no. I would expect close >>>>>competition between top 5 programs and this list (PCA ratings): >>>>> >>>>>45. Smirin,Ilia ISR 2599 182 >>>>>46. Kasimdzhanov,Rustam UZB 2599 174 >>>>>47. Khenkin,Igor RUS 2598 193 >>>>>48. Lautier,Joel FRA 2596 157 >>>>>49. Kharlov,Andrei RUS 2596 170 >>>>>50. Magerramov,Elmar AZE 2595 187 >>>>>51. Piket,Jeroen NED 2595 153 >>>>>52. Bologan,Viorel MDA 2594 199 >>>>> >>>>>See my other post. I would expect the top 5 programs to score >>>>>2519 or better (in tournament, not match play). Note: That is >>>> >>>>Hi Chris, >>>> >>>>IMO 2519 would be a terrific result for every chess program on 40/2. >>>> >>>>>still a loosing record, but very competitive! :) >>>> >>>>Right. >>>> >>>>>Just my opinion. :) >>>> >>>>Appreciated. >>>> >>>>Advice: go and play 10-20 games against GM's and then after each game they >>>>will tell you a) what you did wrong, b) what they could have done better. >>>>After they are finished with you you feel like the stupidest chess player >>>>in the whole universe. Not very encouraging for men's ego :-) >>>> >>>>At AEGON I felt many times this way and concluded Rebel would never play >>>>on GM level. I start doubting after DB defeated Kasparov and Rebel's 40/2 >>>>games against Anand. I hesitated a lot starting the GM challenge but I was >>>>too curious to let it pass. >>>> >>>>>Oh, great matches you have been putting on. I hope only the >>>>>best for the great programs Rebel and Tiger. :) >>>> >>>>Tiger will have its baptism in the third Lithuania - Rebel event. >>>> >>>>Ed >>>> >>> >>>Ed sometimes I wonder about your alleged Modesty, After the enormous success you >>>have had at Aegon and other places, even drawing Annand, it's hard to believe >>>you could be so skeptical of the Programs abilities. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>I find this entire discussion extremely funny. >> >>The _programmers_ say the programs are _not_ 2600 players. The non-programmers >>claim they are. Who would you suppose has the best perspective to make that >>judgement? > > >This seems like a very funny thing for you to say. The allusion you have made >in the field of logic(especially Toulman logic) is called an "appeal to >authority". And this type of argumentation can be effective, however when >people make an appeal to an Authority on ACTUAL chess play like larry Kaufman an >International master who claims that programs are around as strong as the top 5 >U.S grandmasters(on mere p400s at that) you dismiss it out of hand. I don't dismiss it out of hand. But if I have a question about the effectiveness of brain surgery, I ask the _surgeon_ and not the _patient_. They have two entirely different perspectives. The patient recovers fully. He considers this procedure a revolution. The doctor knows that only one of 20 will recover. He considers it terribly risky. Who is right? Chess program 'users' have one perspective from playing the programs. The authors have a completely different one, knowing all the things that are missing, all the things the program does poorly, all the things it gets into trouble with... Which perspective seems most accurate? The user of a black box, or the person that 'filled' the black box? >> >>:) >> >>IE find _any_ programmer here that would say his program is a 2600 level player >>if it was playing in FIDE rated events. Find one. even one-half of one. :)
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