Author: george petty
Date: 23:48:49 01/13/00
Go up one level in this thread
On January 14, 2000 at 02:20:09, James Robertson wrote: >On January 14, 2000 at 00:44:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On January 13, 2000 at 23:07:07, James Robertson wrote: >> >>>On January 13, 2000 at 22:49:11, Eugene Nalimov wrote: >>> >>>>IBM got something from Hsu (publicity) and gave him money to work on DB; >>> >>>Not publicity. Computer knowledge. Nobody (aside from the computer chess >>>community) knows who Hsu is. He could have been replaced at any time and DB >>>would still have continued. >> >> >> >>Not a prayer. He designed _all_ the hardware. He developed the parallel >>search. Etc. Hsu _was_ deep blue, just as he was Deep Thought... > >I find it impossible to believe that he is the only human who is capable of >doing this. I agree with you again. The old saying about how long you will be missed, is like pulling your hand out of bucket of water. There are many who are capable of doing it. George > >> >>> >>>>Chesbase got something from Amir Ban (money from selling his program) and gave >>>>money to him. Yes, Amir had early version of his program before he came to >>>>Chessbase (or they came to him - doesn't matter in this context). Hsu and others >>>>had DT before IBM contract. Yes, DB is not DT, but current Junior also differs >>>>from the erlier one. >>>> >>>>So I still don't see the difference here. Or, to be more precise - the >>>>difference is the fact that Kasparov knows he can beat Deep Junior in the match. >>> >>>It is not a title match or even a match. >>> >>>Personnally, I think the most important clause in this entire issue is the one >>>of the challenger having a "tournament record". I think that Kasparov is afraid >>>to play something he cannot prepare for, and Hsu is afraid to reveal that DB is >>>not as "all-powerful" as many people were led (or decided) to believe. Instead >>>of the monster that we might imagine it was, it is in fact a very fast but >>>vulnerable program that has weaknesses and will have a certain number of losses >>>like the first DB had to Chessica. >> >>Once again, DB did _not_ lose to any computer. It never played a computer. >>Deep Thought hardware was used in Hong Kong and lost to fritz in 1995. Not >>Deep Blue. The Deep Blue 1 processors were not completed until very near to >>the match date in 1996. >> >> >>> >>>If DB plays a match with, say, Leko as a preemptory event and draws or loses, >>>all of the mystique of a super-machine facing the strongest human in the world >>>goes out the window, as obviously it is weaker than many humans. It is better >>>for Hsu to keep his machine under wraps and use its unknown play for publicity >>>and as a weapon. >>> >>>James >> >>Of course GM players don't go into seclusion for several months before playing >>for the world title, right? > >This is a different point. Does going into seclusion for several months change >your style of play? Does it suddenly make you an unknown player? No. It helps >the GMs prepare for the event with new novelties, etc. But a _lot_ about how >they will play at the event can be deduced from their play before the months of >seclusion. > >James > >> >> >> >>> >>>> >>>>Eugene >>>> >>>>On January 13, 2000 at 22:22:28, James Robertson wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 13, 2000 at 22:08:50, Eugene Nalimov wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>So it looks that Hsu and Kasparov's team disagree on exactly one issue: "is Hsu >>>>>>DB or not". >>>>>> >>>>>>If Hsu is not DB, then most of the letter makes sense. However, if Hsu *is* DB, >>>>>>than Kasparov just takes back his challenge. >>>>>> >>>>>>Hypotetical situation: Amir Ban decided that he doesn't want to distribute the >>>>>>Junior throug Chessbase, and went to the other distributor. After that Kasparov >>>>>>refuses to play Deep Junior in the previously agreed (at least in principle) >>>>>>match, saying that he wants to play with "Chessbase Junior", not just "Junior". >>>>>> >>>>>>Eugene >>>>> >>>>>It is different. Chessbase did not fund Junior's programming; it was a complete >>>>>program before they ever got their hands on it. I guess the question to answer >>>>>your question is "was IBM Deep Blue or not?" >>>>> >>>>>James >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On January 13, 2000 at 20:20:48, Frederic Friedel wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>We received the following reaction to the open letter published by F.H. Hsu. It >>>>>>>is by Garry Kasparov?s manager Owen Williams. Garry himself is on a flight to >>>>>>>Holland, on his way to the GM tournament in Wijk aan Zee. The letter is also on >>>>>>>Mark Crowther's site, or will be there soon. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Feng Hsiung Hsu's open letter is extraordinarily misleading and he demonstrates >>>>>>>a troubling ability to ignore certain responses and to take items out of context >>>>>>>or make them up and put them in his letter as facts. In his Open Letter he says: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"...Owen never said a straight yes or no to my question of whether Kasparov was >>>>>>>interested in a match. " >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If you read the next paragraph, you will see his inability to read plain >>>>>>>English. On Nov. 30th, I had responded as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"With regard to a match against a computer, Garry would be happy to consider a >>>>>>>Challenge under the right circumstances with the rules carefully laid out." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I went on to explain to Mr. Hsu that for Garry to consider a match, the >>>>>>>prizemoney would have to be substantial, that putting his World Title on the >>>>>>>line with an untried and untested opponent did not make any sense at all and >>>>>>>suggested politely but firmly that Mr. Hsu would have to get his program up and >>>>>>>running on his own or with a backer and then play many games including other >>>>>>>computer programs and to establish himself as THE CONTENDER. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Obviously, Mr. Hsu did not like my answers very much, became belligerent and >>>>>>>made threats and even grandly imposed deadlines. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Dec. 3rd, amongst other things, I repeated to him: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"Your tone is quite hostile and with angry people, I like to keep my responses >>>>>>>simple. Garry remains ready, willing and able to play a serious match against a >>>>>>>computer - under the right conditions." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>So persistent did Mr. Hsu become that on Dec. 21s I wrote to him: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"He (Kasparov) will not be associated with an open letter like this. It is not >>>>>>>the way he does business and it would run counter to discussions he is having >>>>>>>with others." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The next day Mr. Hsu sent a draft letter intended to go out openly soliciting >>>>>>>sponsors on his and Garry's behalf! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Dec. 23rd, I replied as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "I think that maybe I am not expressing myself very clearly. Mr. Kasparov does >>>>>>>not authorize you to say anything at all. I hope this is very clear." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Incredibly, Mr. Hsu wrote once again, wanting Garry's authorization for another >>>>>>>letter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>My last e-mail (in exasperation) was: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"You continue making statements which are your words and not Garry's. Please >>>>>>>read what I have sent you very carefully." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Effectively, Mr. Hsu had many strikes against him: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>* He behaved as if he was Deep Blue and we know he is not. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>* All he had was a computer chip with no organization or sponsor behind him. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>* Garry made it very clear that he was not going to give him time just to go on >>>>>>>a "fishing trip" for a year or two to try and attract sponsors or money. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>* His entire presentation was speculative and without substance. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>* He began almost immediately to make threats and he seemed to think, like many >>>>>>>before him, that all he had to do to get Garry to do his bidding, was to >>>>>>>threaten "exposure." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>* To summarize, he had no sponsor, no money, no entity and was entirely lacking >>>>>>>in any seriousness or credibility from a business point of view. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ironically, Mr. Hsu waited until two and a half years after the match to set up >>>>>>>a flurry of e-mails which almost from the beginning were threatening in nature. >>>>>>>On reflection, I firmly believe that he knew his offer had no credibility and he >>>>>>>was looking for a little publicity and some notoriety. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For any of you who still think Mr. Hsu was above-board, just put yourself in his >>>>>>>position. Would you not have called up and said, "Hsu here. Let's put our >>>>>>>heads together and see if we can make this thing work." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That's not a good idea if all you want out of this is to have a go at THE WORLD >>>>>>>CHAMPION! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Owen Williams >>>>>>> >>>>>>>S.M.S.I. Inc., Palm Beach, FL.
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