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Subject: Re: little study too difficult for some programs?

Author: James Robertson

Date: 09:07:41 03/09/00

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On March 09, 2000 at 09:59:56, Gerhard Vetter wrote:

>On March 08, 2000 at 19:07:36, James Robertson wrote:
>
>>On March 08, 2000 at 18:34:44, Gerhard Vetter wrote:
>>
>>>On March 08, 2000 at 18:26:44, José de Jesús García Ruvalcaba wrote:
>>>
>>>>On March 08, 2000 at 18:04:48, Andrew Dados wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On March 08, 2000 at 17:54:35, Gerhard Vetter wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Lately I found this easy-to-solve but elegant little study:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>8/8/8/8/4k3/1P1p4/1r6/R1N1K3 w Q -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To my surprise many modern programs can't find the win despite of 5manTBS only
>>>>>>2ply away!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Junior 6 (with 5manTBS) sees only a draw after 45 min on Celeron 500/ 128
>>>>>>Also Shredder 4 and Nimzo 7.32 fail to solve it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is interesting that the older versions of some of the above programs need
>>>>>>only 0 sec
>>>>>>(Nimzo99) resp. 10 sec (Junior 5.0). Tiger 12.0e takes also 0 sec.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It would be interesting to know how other programs do in this position and even
>>>>>>more
>>>>>>interesting if someone can suggest a reason for this odd behaviour of some
>>>>>>leading programs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Since I don't know if this information is embedded in the EPD: white has still
>>>>>>castling rights.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Gerhard
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>	Yes, the queenside castling rights are in the fen string you posted (it is the
>>>>'Q' after the side to move).
>>>>
>>>>>I can be that your tablebases are somehow broken.. note that all programs
>>>>>without TB access solved it...
>>>>>It's of course just a guess.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Andrew-
>>>>
>>>>	The very simple explanation is that Nalimov tablebases do not store castling
>>>>rights.
>>>>José.
>>>
>>>sounds like a sensible reason, but why can Fritz 6 solve it then (with
>>>tablebases activated)?
>>>Gerhard
>>
>>Because Fritz only uses the tablebases if the current position is in the
>>tablebases (since it uses tablebases stored on the CD, it would be too slow to
>>use them in the search).
>>
>>James
>
>thanks for everybody's input, what I learned that in some endgame positions one
>better not uses tablebases access because the implementation is still buggy.
>Gerhard

The only bugs I have found in the Nalimov tablebase implementation have been my
own. :\

It was a decision to not store castling rights that Eugene made, so we can't
really call it a bug....

James



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