Author: Jouni Uski
Date: 02:31:46 03/28/00
Go up one level in this thread
On March 28, 2000 at 05:13:32, Enrique Irazoqui wrote: >On March 28, 2000 at 04:39:32, Bertil Eklund wrote: > >>On March 28, 2000 at 03:20:18, blass uri wrote: >> >>>On March 28, 2000 at 01:24:18, Bertil Eklund wrote: >>> >>>>On March 27, 2000 at 09:53:57, Ed Schröder wrote: >>>> >>>>>On March 27, 2000 at 09:06:01, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On March 25, 2000 at 23:13:49, Tina Long wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On March 25, 2000 at 14:28:13, James Robertson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On March 25, 2000 at 13:41:28, Roger wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Would tablebases for Tiger have changed this result at all? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Roger >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Maybe a quarter of a point.... My experience with tablebases is that if the >>>>>>>>program is moderately smart it doesn't benefit tremendously from them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>James >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ed Schroder said about 6 months ago that Tablebases were worth about 10 points >>>>>>>on the SSDF scale. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I'm 70% sure he said that! I'm 100% sure that Ed said once that something was >>>>>>>worth very little rating points. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I'm glad I could add some real detail to this discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Tina Long >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Ed is wrong there. it is _amazing_ how many comp vs comp games end up in >>>>>>krp vs kr, with the side without tablebases losing most of those. There are >>>>>>other endings too (KQP vs KQ, see for example crafty vs nimzo in the ICCT >>>>>>tournament last month). >>>>>> >>>>>>The wrong way to test this is to play A with, vs A without. the right way to >>>>>>test this is A without vs B without, then A with vs B without. But A ought to >>>>>>be reasonably close to B without tablebases... >>>>> >>>>>Tablebases have a great future no doubt. But what is available at the >>>>>moment (4-5 pieces) its value for Rebel is not more than 5-10 elo I >>>>>would say because: >>>>> >>>>>a) most cases are simply covered by chess knowlegde; >>>>> >>>>>b) the loss of speed during search because of all the >>>>>disc access. >>>>> >>>>>So I don't think I am wrong when the subject is Rebel. >>>>> >>>>>Things might change dramatically when for instance the complete >>>>>6 pieces become available. +100 elo easily for chess programs. >>>>> >>>>>Ed >>>> >>>>Hi! >>>> >>>>I agreed totally with you some months ago but todays best programs uses the TBs >>>>in the search very efficient. In example Hiarcs and Nimzo began to find the Tbs >>>>with 10-11 pieces on the board (tournament time) but today Crafty, Fritz6, >>>>Junior6 and Shredder4 find the TBs with 15-16 pieces on the board. These four >>>>programs are probably the best in endgames, only Tiger without TBs come close. >>>> >>>>I guess the above programs earns 25-50 elo with TBs. >>>> >>>>Bertil >>> >>>1)The fact that they find the tablebases does not say in how many cases the >>>tablebases change the result and we cannot know from this about the elo >>>improvement. >>>The only way to know is by testing the program with tablebases and the program >>>without tablebases. >>> >>>2)It is known that crafty also could find the tablebases with 15-16 pieces some >>>monthes ago. >>> >>>Uri >>Hi! >> >>I have followed a lot of games, when the above mentioned programs wins the >>endgame. I don't think it's only a coincidence that these programs and maybe >>Tiger seems to play better endgames than i.e. Nimzo, Hiarcs, Rebel Genius Mchess >>and so on. >> >>2. Yes and Crafty plays very good endgames. >>3. Endgames becomes more and more important for todays programs, and I guess >>Tablebases is the most efficient way to go. > >I agree with you. I didn't count the games in which tablebases were decisive, >but I think they add at least half a point every 20 games or so. This translates >into 20 Elo points, and as important as that is seing the programs playing >endgames more intelligently, instead of making blunders typical of beginners. > >Enrique > I think, that just in engine-engine play TBs are very nice to avoid unnecessary 50 move playing, when position is dead draw. E.g. LG2000 many, many times tries to win draw games. And in 40/2h games this means over 2 hour wasted time!! Jouni
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