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Subject: Re: Crafty 17.10 not that strong

Author: Ed Schröder

Date: 22:10:10 04/23/00

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On April 23, 2000 at 23:43:14, Christophe Theron wrote:

>On April 23, 2000 at 19:47:10, Bertil Eklund wrote:
>
>>On April 23, 2000 at 15:59:47, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>
>>>On April 23, 2000 at 10:27:28, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On April 23, 2000 at 04:01:13, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On April 22, 2000 at 19:15:20, Pete Galati wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On April 22, 2000 at 18:27:14, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On April 22, 2000 at 14:46:28, Pete Galati wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On April 22, 2000 at 15:02:19, Chessfun wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On April 22, 2000 at 14:49:59, Pete Galati wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On April 22, 2000 at 14:20:57, A.L.Mourik wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Hello dear CCC friends,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Although earlier reports from e.g. Jouni Uski, suggest an enormous increase in
>>>>>>>>>>>strenght for Crafty 17.10
>>>>>>>>>>>Nuun 2 match result Fritz6 against Crafty  17.10 ends in a very clear
>>>>>>>>>>>29,5-10,5!! victory for Fritz6.
>>>>>>>>>>>Played on PII 400 8mb for HT, Timecontrol 5 min + 3 sec per move.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>There isn't generally an enormous increase in strength from version to version
>>>>>>>>>>of any program, that's unrealistic to expect there to be.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Your time controls are a bit short there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Pete
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Why didn't you say or ask that of Jouni when he posted?
>>>>>>>>>as all he said was blitz, that may even have been faster
>>>>>>>>>than this.
>>>>>>>>>Thanks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Sorry, I don't read all posts, this one caught my eye because it was at the top
>>>>>>>>of the board.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If Jouni played some games this fast or faster, then my opinion would be the
>>>>>>>>same, it's too fast.  That isn't to say that I have not run games at that speed,
>>>>>>>>I have, and they were too fast to judge the strength of a program.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Pete
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Why?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Can you please explain why?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You must certainly have some evidence?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Christophe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Why?  Why what?  Your question is far too vague.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Pete
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Why is it too fast to judge the strength of a program?
>>>>>
>>>>>Give your evidence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    Christophe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>One simple answer. Take the top 4 programs on the SSDF and play a very long
>>>>round-robin event, but at blitz time controls.  (IE every program plays every
>>>>other program 100 times).  Do you think the order will be the same as the SSDF
>>>>list for standard time controls?
>>>>
>>>>I don't.  I am certain of it.
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm certain that I would get very valuable information from this. Quickly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Christophe
>>Hi!
>>
>>You are right in general but for instance Nimzo is much weaker in blitz and
>>Genius is very much stronger in blitz vs tournament time control games.
>>
>>Bertil
>
>
>That's why I wouldn't trust a blitz result blindly. But still, I would get some
>valuable information quickly.
>
>Notice that your remark about Genius is not valid anymore IMO. On current
>computers, Genius has problems even in blitz against the strongest programs. You
>have to go back to Pentium 90 or 486dx2-66 to see Genius competing well in
>blitz. I'm talking about the versions of Genius that have been tested by the
>SSDF.
>
>
>    Christophe

Maybe the argument is not valid for Tiger but the argument is valid
for a lot of other chess programs. Genius was a good example 3-4
years ago. Nimzo, Rebel doing much better on long time control than
on blitz. IMO the latter is also true for Crafty, I assume Bob will
comment this. Also all of this is also true for Mchess.

Speaking for Rebel: I NEVER trust (and never will trust) the blitz
results of Rebel as blitz isn't my goal. This might be different for
other programmers who consider blitz as important. For me a perfect
explanation why this difference exists among chess programs.

Ed



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