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Subject: Re: Reproducibility of Nunn matches is not so good

Author: Ulrich Tuerke

Date: 00:48:48 05/02/00

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On May 02, 2000 at 03:41:22, Christophe Theron wrote:

>On May 02, 2000 at 03:22:36, Ulrich Tuerke wrote:
>
>>On May 02, 2000 at 01:10:58, Jouni Uski wrote:
>>
>>>About one week ago I posted "sensational" blitz Nunn test result Crafty17.10 -
>>>Fritz6a 12-8. And I wasn't lying! Now I have more time to re-check and second
>>>match ended 9 - 11 for Fritz. I also repeated two other matches with interesting
>>>results:
>>>                           1.              2.
>>>Crafty 17.10 - Lg2000   13 - 7         9,5 - 10,5
>>>Fritz6a - Lg2000        13,5 - 6,5     11 - 9
>>>
>>>Exact enviroment: AMD 450Mhz, ponder of, 16+16MB hash, 4m+1s level, 3+4+some
>>>5 piece TBs, Fritz6 interface, early resign.
>>>
>>>Conclusion: after 20 games You don't know much yet...
>>>
>>>Jouni
>>
>>With learn off, the games should be exactly reproducable (IMHO). Why should the
>>search algo of either prog under the same pre-conditions produce another best
>>move for any of the positions some time later?
>>If you are right, then IMO either (or both) progs are kind of buggy, accessing
>>some non-initialized data or similar ?
>>Or does any body have anothe explanation ?
>>
>>Uli
>
>
>The main problem is the way time is measured.
>
>On the PC, the time functions only return multiples of 1/18.2 seconds. Even
>functions that are supposed to return the current time in 1/1000 of s are not
>accurate to the millisecond. They are accurate to approximately 5 hundreds of s
>(1/18.2=0.054945...).
>
>So depending exactly when you started a search inside a 1/18.2 seconds time
>slice, searching exactly the same number of nodes could fall randomly just
>before or just after another given 1/18.2 time slice.
>
>So when you measure the time taken by a given search, always the same, you end
>up with pseudo random results. A search that takes exactly 1 second can be
>measured at 0.989s, or at 1.044s, and it depends if it started just before of
>just after a clock tick.
>
>The time allocation algorithm of a program could decide that if a search takes
>less than 1 second, it will allow it to complete the next iteration. If it takes
>more than one second, it will stop the search immediately and play.
>
>In the case of our 1 second search, it will sometimes stop the search and play
>after 1 second, and sometimes let the search continue for longer.
>
>There is no way to avoid this problem. Even with a millisecond-accurate timer.
>Even if you can measure the time up to the microsecond.
>
>Random events such as mouse moves, hard disk saving mode and autoplayer random
>lags only make this problem worse.
>
>This is not a bug. You can call this a "quantic" problem. :)
>
>
>
>    Christophe

Thanks, sounds reasonable to me. So, in particular at very short time controls,
I would expect that these effects could have some influence in blitz games where
the uncertainty is relatively large compared to the time which is needed to
search a root move, and Jouni played at rather short controls. I do not think,
that these "quantum uncertainties" would be that drastic at tournament controls.

Well, if Heisenberg knew ?

Uli



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