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Subject: Re: Is this move really the best?

Author: Stefan Meyer-Kahlen

Date: 13:35:29 05/02/00

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On May 02, 2000 at 15:18:54, blass uri wrote:

>On May 02, 2000 at 14:25:38, Pete Galati wrote:
>
>>On May 02, 2000 at 09:07:42, Stefan Meyer-Kahlen wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>In my set of tactical test positions there is the following example:
>>>
>>>[D] 2rqk2r/pb1nbp1p/4p1p1/1B1n4/Np1N4/7Q/PP3PPP/R1B1R1K1 w k – bm Rxe6
>>>
>>>I can’t remember where I have found this position, but the solution is supposed
>>>to be Rxe6. Until know every version of Shredder has found this move sooner or
>>>later and kept it as a best move until the end of my test time.
>>>
>>>Last night I have tested my latest version and found something interesting.
>>>Shredder played Rxe6 after a while as usual, but got a terrible fail low for
>>>that move at ply 11.
>>>
>>>So here is my question:
>>>Is Rxe6 really the best move and I have introduced a bug somewhere in my code or
>>>is Rxe6 a mistake? I didn’t find an improvement for white after 1. Rxe6 fxe6,
>>>but this can be due to my limited chess knowledge.
>>>
>>>Here is Shredder’s output:
>>>
>>> 6.01   0:00.71  -0.23   1.Bh6 a6 2.Bd3 Bf6 3.Nf3 a5 (63.557) 88.3
>>> 6 ->   0:01.76  -0.23   1.Bh6 a6 2.Bd3 Bf6 3.Nf3 a5 (159.299) 90.2
>>> 7.01   0:02.71  -0.09   1.Bh6 a6 2.Bd3 Bf6 3.Nb3 N5b6 4.Nxb6 Qxb6
>>>                         (240.167) 88.3
>>> 7 ->   0:04.90  -0.09   1.Bh6 a6 2.Bd3 Bf6 3.Nb3 N5b6 4.Nxb6 Qxb6
>>>                         (435.029) 88.6
>>> 8.01   0:07.96  -0.01   1.Bh6 a6 2.Bf1 N7f6 3.Rad1 Qa5 4.Bg7 Nf4
>>>                         (704.124) 88.3
>>> 8 ->   0:10.15  -0.01   1.Bh6 a6 2.Bf1 N7f6 3.Rad1 Qa5 4.Bg7 Nf4 (911.624) 89.7
>>> 9.01   0:17.93  -0.17   1.Bh6 a6 2.Be2 Bg5 3.Bf3 Nf4 4.Qg3 Bxh6 5.Bxb7
>>>                         (1.594.580) 88.8
>>> 9 ->   0:32.29  -0.17   1.Bh6 a6 2.Be2 Bg5 3.Bf3 Nf4 4.Qg3 Bxh6 5.Bxb7
>>>                         (2.918.536) 90.3
>>>10.01   0:42.76  -0.14   1.Bh6 a6 2.Be2 Qa5 3.b3 e5 4.Nf3 e4 5.Nd2 f5
>>>                         (3.876.621) 90.6
>>>10.08   2:02.76  -0.13++ 1.Rxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 Qa5 3.Bxd7+ Kxd7 4.Nec5+ Ke8 5.Qd7+
>>>                         Kf8 6.Nxb7 (11.210.309) 91.3
>>>10.08   2:26.60  +0.22++ 1.Rxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 Qa5 3.Bxd7+ Kxd7 4.Nec5+ Ke8 5.Qd7+
>>>                         Kf8 6.Bh6+ Kf7 7.Nxb7 a6 8.Nxa5 Rc1+ 9.Rxc1
>>>                         (13.366.273) 91.1
>>>10.08   3:25.78  +0.40   1.Rxe6 Rc7 2.Re2 O-O 3.Bh6 Re8 4.Rae1 a6 5.Bd3 a5 6.b3
>>>                         (18.827.259) 91.4
>>>10 ->   3:45.35  +0.40   1.Rxe6 Rc7 2.Re2 O-O 3.Bh6 Re8 4.Rae1 a6 5.Bd3 a5 6.b3
>>>                         (20.541.368) 91.1
>>>11.01   5:35.76  +0.15-- 1.Rxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 Qa5 3.Bxd7+ Kxd7 4.Nec5+ Ke8 5.Qd7+
>>>                         Kf7 6.Nxb7 Rc7 7.Nd6+ Kg7 8.Ne8+ Rxe8 9.b3 Rxc1+
>>>                         (31.352.209) 93.3
>>>11.01   9:18.76  -0.35-- 1.Rxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 Qa5 3.Bxd7+ Kxd7 4.Nec5+ Ke8 5.Qd7+
>>>                         Kf7 6.Nxb7 Rc7 7.Nd6+ Kg7 8.Ne8+ Rxe8 9.Qxe8 Nf6
>>>                         10.Qb8 Bd6 (54.470.299) 97.4
>>>11.01  14:41.53  -1.36   1.Rxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 Qa5 3.Bxd7+ Kxd7 4.Nec5+ Ke8 5.Qd7+
>>>                         Kf7 6.Nxb7 Rc7 7.Nxa5 Rxd7 8.Nc6 Rc7 9.Nxe7
>>>                         (86.129.099) 97.7
>>>11.02  14:52.57  -1.35++ 1.Bh6 a6 2.Be2 Qa5 3.b3 Nf4 4.Bxf4 Bxg2 5.Qxg2
>>>                         (87.133.005) 97.6
>>>11.02  15:07.65  -1.00++ 1.Bh6 a6 2.Bxd7+ Qxd7 3.Nxe6 Qxa4 4.Ng7+ Kd8 5.Qd7+
>>>                         Qxd7 (88.458.785) 97.4
>>>11.02  16:23.21  -0.10   1.Bh6 a6 2.Bxd7+ Qxd7 3.b3 e5 4.Qxd7+ Kxd7 5.Rxe5 Bf6
>>>                         6.Rxd5+ Bxd5 7.Nb6+ Kd6 8.Nxc8+ Kd7 9.Re1
>>>                         (95.283.049) 96.9
>>>
>>>(I have formatted it a bit, hopefully it helps...)
>>>
>>>Stefan
>>
>>I'm a weak Chess player, and I could not conceive of the move Rxe6, but that
>>means nothing at all, it just means that I couldn't look at that position an see
>>a way for Rxe6 to benifit me.  I don't have the ability to see ahead very far at
>>all.
>
>After
>1.Rxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 Qa5 3.Bxd7+ Kxd7 4.Nec5+ Ke8 5.Qd7+ Kf7 6.Nxb7 Rc7
>white is losing and white has no logical alternative to avoid this line after
>1.Rxe6 except 2.Bh6.
>
>computers need a long time to see it because they believe that after 6...Rc7
>7.Nd6+ Kg7 8.Ne8+ Rxe8 9.Qxe8 Nf6 10.Qb8 is good for white.
>
>2.Bh6 is not a move that computers like because white get an attack for a rook
>and most programs believe that a rook is more than an attack.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>But on the other hand, the Dos Comet sat there looking at that position for
>>around 2 3/4 hours on my slow computer and never got past Rxe6.  Comet would
>>have more hashtable available to it if I had run Comet all the way in Dos, I
>>have no idea what difference that would have made.
>
>It is not surprising
>1.Rxe6 fxe6 2.Nxe6 is a trap that most programs fall because they do not know
>which lines to extend.
>
>Avoiding Rxe6 in less than 15 minutes(by the latest versions of Rebel and
>shredder) is very good relative to most programs.
>
>Uri

So you thing I can leave the positon in my test suite by changing "bm Bxe6" to
"am Bxe6"?

Stefan




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