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Subject: Re: Fritz5 smokes Hiarcs 6 engine in 30' fixed match on PII 233

Author: Thorsten Czub

Date: 08:38:12 10/18/97

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>We should maybe try to make it clear about which "Fritz 5" we are
>talking:
>
>- Fritz 5 on a K6/200 is slower than on my P5/166 (tested here with
>Beta2 version of Fritz 5 in my Gigabyte DX 586 Intel 430HX dual
>mainboard).

Sorry , but I don't believe this.
Can you set up a position and benchmark the eval/ply/score
and I will do the same with MY fritz ?
Could we take the commercial one to make sure we all use the same engine
?
I cannot believe this. Sorry.

>- Fritz with e.g. 2 MB hash tables is 3-4 times slower at 40/120 than
>Fritz with 100 MB hash tables (which also get sometimes 100% filled on
>my P166 at 40/120 time control). Thorsten knows about this, of course
>;-)

Right. Fritz5 needs big hash. So buy it. And use it.
But I will not buy extra hash-tables only for fritz5 when I don't like
have the right feeling to do it. Let Feist/Wuellenweber or Moritz buy
huge hash-ram.
If they have the right feeling, they should do it than.

>-> Hiarcs is quite insensitive to less hash tables, also when you use
>e.g. Hiarcs 6/DOS on a 16MB RAM machine you get 15 MB HT, with Fritz 5
>on the same machine (Windows also takes some RAM, add some for the
>graphical user interface ...) you will maybe get 1 MB HT).

Ohhhh ! Thats not my problem, or ?
I would say: this is ineffective programming of the
Fritz-development-team !
I have tears in my eyes now ... :-)

>
>- Opening books: Fritz 5 comes with old (throw-away) .FBK books and a
>(small, too shallow for comp. vs. comp. games) 100 MB opening tree on CD
>which is not optimized for play vs. other programs.

They sell a program with an opening book that is only good to throw it
away ?
I would say this is not my problem too. How do the customers like this
???


>-> I use Fritz 5 with my own 1.5 Gigabyte opening tree or the Fritz 5
>PowerBook tree (600 MB).

I will also not spend 600 MB-HD for a chess program !!
Maybe later when we have DVD, but as long as we have to use this shit HD
I don't waste my space...


>
>-> The tree has to be "writable", i.e. on harddisk and not on CD for the
>learning function to be able to store learning values in it. This also
>makes a big difference if you e.g. play a sequence of 20 or 40 games
>against the same (computer) opponent.


See above comment.

>
>
>By chosing the "right" or "wrong" configuration, it is very easy to
>manipulate results in favour of either Fritz or Hiarcs, I guess the
>deviation would be at least +- 100 ELO points.


Manipulation ?
I shall by a program to play chess.
It comes with a shit opening book, needs 256 MegaByte RAM to run almost
efficient, needs 600 MegaByte HD and your powerbook tree to run half-way
strong and you call anybody NOT doing your senseless efforts
MANIPULATING !
That is strong !

I had similar threads about crafty !
Guys - you have a problem. Your programs need too many resources.

Hiarcs runs very good with 16MByte RAM and 650 Kilobyte HD-space !

>My advice therefore is: Never trust results where the poster doesn't
>quote at least:
>- CPU used
>- RAM allocated for hash tables
>- book settings (book type, learning enabled?, book source, ...)
>- maybe also some figure like "it takes 20 seconds from initial position
>with fixed depth 8 ply to play 1.e4" to verify the correct speed of
>other components (2nd level cache, RAM settings and type (EDO, SDRAM,
>...)).

maybe we have also to post a picture of our girl friend to satisfy you ?
Moritz. This is really ... hm... unbelievable.

I would call your behaviour a little hardware-materialistic and freaky !
I don't want to be a freak !
I love chess. I love computerchess. But I am not running through the
town with a soldering iron and modules-of-ram in my trousers.

Also I will not turn arround only because there is a computershop or
McDonalds.
I turn arround if there is a nice girl or La Tour Eiffel, but not for a
computershop.


>
>It's all slightly technical and complicated, but without sufficient
>information you are ill advised to believe *any* results of the
>aforementioned kind.

Maybe ChessBase should sell a special Fritz5 for Freaks development Kit
with 500 MByte Ram, a fireball 3 GigaByte HD, a Gigabyte main-board and
a Hamburger from MCDonalds !

:-)

>
>Moritz
>
>P.S.: Fritz 4.01 with 64 MB hash tables vs. Hiarcs 6 (Fritz-Engine) with
>32 MB hash tables on P166 with Fritz4.fbk and reversed colours from the
>same opening:
>
>result: Fritz got 52% out of 40 games 40/120 with permanent brain
>disabled.



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