Author: blass uri
Date: 14:02:08 06/13/00
Go up one level in this thread
On June 13, 2000 at 15:55:35, Dann Corbit wrote: >On June 13, 2000 at 15:34:42, blass uri wrote: >>On June 13, 2000 at 14:57:01, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>On June 13, 2000 at 14:48:34, Mogens Larsen wrote: >>>>On June 13, 2000 at 14:19:31, Tom Kerrigan wrote: >>>>>That's just your opinion of "understanding." I think that computers understand >>>>>chess just fine. >>>> >>>>Yes, that's my opinion. I'm also of the belief that you're wrong. >>>> >>>>>But opening books are an inherent part of computer chess programming. Otherwise, >>>>>why does every program have one? I don't see the difference... >>>> >>>>Most opening books are not a result of programming (except when it comes to >>>>format, but obviously doesn't count) or output generated by the program itself, >>>>ie. learning files and games. Thereby it isn't an integrated part of a program, >>>>but an attachment. >>>> >>>>>But humans have teachers and read books. Surely programmers can teach their >>>>>programs...? >>>> >>>>The problem is that computer programs gets the answers without asking the >>>>question so to speak. Making mistakes and learning is an integrated part of a >>>>teaching process. Programmers don't teach anything, they offer something the >>>>program can't refuse nor reflect upon. They offer knowledge that has already >>>>been processed. I'm sorry if it's a little unclear, but I'm neither a programmer >>>>nor a grandmaster :o). >>> >>>Computers understand tactics. They don't plan at all (at least none that have >>>source code available plan). Tactically, they are clearly better than humans. >>> >>>As far as opening books, they are an accumulation. Consider chess 200 years >>>ago. Were the same openings be played as today? No they won't. And why not? >>>Because after hundreds of thousands of games under careful scrutiny, weaknesses >>>were found in various lines of play. >>> >>>It is obvious that humans "use opening books" because the style of the game and >>>types of attacks used change over time. >>> >>>Consider all the games played by GM's and super GM's in the past century. This >>>is the equivalent of millions of hours of supercomputer effort at analysis. >> >>I do not think that using opening books by computers is unfair but >>I disagree that opening books are eqvivalent to million of hours of >>supercomputer because supercomputer is faster than humans and it can calculate >>in 1 second things that humans needs a lot of years to calculate. > >The converse is also true. Take the LCT II test and let your favorite program >chew on it. Let me know when it gets them all right (I am guessing *NEVER*) >because programs stink at positional choices. They don't understand gambits >very well, and they don't understand sacrifices very well. Very little tactical >stuff happens in the first ten moves. Computers have a really hard time seeing >deep horizons. Humans who invented the good openings were *PLANNING* which is >why they turned out so well. If we were to just try and brute force all the >combinations, we will never come up with anything worthwhile. Too many choices >to examine them all. > >The *only* thing computers are better at than humans is tactics. But they are a >lot better at that particular facet. > >>The main problem is that humans do not know the way that humans thought in >>order to invent the opening theory so they cannot explain it to programs. > >It's a mistake to try and make computers play like humans. Humans have a >trillion neurons in a network. Computers have (at most) a tiny handful of >general purpose computing units. If we try to model the brain with conventional >CPU's it's going to flop. I think that humans do not use the trillion neurons to play chess. I agree that it is not a good idea to try to model the brain because the human brain cannot remember like computer(even kasparov forgot his home preperation in one of his games and lost and I do not suggest to teach programs to forget)but I think that it is a good idea to learn some good ideas that the human brain knows to use and teach computers these good ideas. Uri
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