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Subject: Re: Opionion needed:Zobrist type 1 error

Author: TEERAPONG TOVIRAT

Date: 22:35:36 06/30/00

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On June 30, 2000 at 15:19:29, Heiner Marxen wrote:

>On June 30, 2000 at 13:41:04, TEERAPONG TOVIRAT wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>For my curiosity I want to estimate the incidence of Zobrist type 1
>>error (different positions having the same hash value).
>>
>>1. Could anyone tell me how many possible positions in chess?
>>The exact value is not so important but the estimated value should be
>>known. I don't have any idea to calculate it.
>>Let it =P.
>>
>>2.Let H= number of total hash values eg. for 64 bit hash table
>>H=2^64.
>>
>>3.Suppose the positions distribute evenly onto their corresponding
>>signature so that every hash value has almost the same number of
>>positions. The average number of  positions sharing the same hash
>>value is = P/H.
>>
>>4.After the 1st position hits on the table,the chance that the next
>>position will have the same hash value(Zobrist type 1 error)
>>= (P/H-1)/(P-1).
>>
>>5.After the N th position hit on the table, the chance of Zobrist type 1
>>error = N*(P/H-1)/(P-N).
>>
>>6.In chess hash table,I expect 1 is relatively much less than P/H
>>and N is much less than P. So, the equation in (5) = N*(P/H)/P
>>= N/H.
>>
>>7.Let's assume that after 1million positions are stored in the 32 bit
>>hash table then the chance of type 1 error  = 1million/2^32  (from (6))
>>approximately = 1/4200 which is unacceptably high. That 's why
>>every one recommends 64 bit hash table instead. In case of 64 bits
>>the chance = 1million/2^64  which is about one in 16 million million.
>>
>>8.Conclusion: There are 3 factors affecting the incidence of Zobrist
>>type 1 error  1.N (number of entry occupied) 2. H(number of hash value))
>>3. the number of positions of any hash value(P/H).
>>
>>Do you agree with my hypothesis???
>
>Being ment as approximations your calculations look good to me.
>
>The influence of 3. P/H is unclear for me, except that H << P

Let me explain ,, like you have 1000 tennis balls and you have to throw them
into 10 baskets I suppose that  finally every baskets should have approximately
100 balls.

>(i.e. H is much smaller than P).  If P/H would not be much larger
>than 1 we would not need a hash function, at all: we would just
>use the key itself.
>
>>Thanks for any comments
>>Teerapong
>
>Heiner



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