Author: blass uri
Date: 14:14:47 07/04/00
Go up one level in this thread
On July 04, 2000 at 16:35:06, Ralf Elvsén wrote: >On July 04, 2000 at 08:04:25, blass uri wrote: > >>On July 04, 2000 at 06:56:07, Ralf Elvsén wrote: >> >>>On July 04, 2000 at 04:28:36, blass uri wrote: >>> >>>>On July 04, 2000 at 02:34:55, Steve wrote: >>>> >>>>>On July 03, 2000 at 18:49:14, Torstein Hall wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>I'm not so sure that Junior will give better analysis than Fritz 5. They are >>>>>>both fast searcher with about the same level of pos. knowledge. Anyway I feel >>>>>>that all the programs give most tactical variations anyway, even Hiarcs 7.32, >>>>>>considered among many as the most positional engine. >>>>> >>>>>I agree. Hiarcs 7.32 is great, but its strength (just like every other >>>>>engine's) is tactics. Its analysis of endgames is often horrendous. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I rather go for Crafty! Its free, has more chess knowledge than most of the >>>>>>programs and runs as a native chessbase engine! >>>>>> >>>>>>Torstein >>>>> >>>>>A number of people have made the same observation in this forum. But whenever I >>>>>play Hiarcs 7.32 against Crafty (running as ChessBase engine) -- generally at >>>>>either G/30 or G/60 -- Hiarcs wins easily. >>>> >>>>The only game that I played Hiarcs7.32 against Crafty17.11 at 3 hours/40 moves >>>>Crafty won and my observation was that hiarcs has a bug at time control that is >>>>longer than G/30 or G/60 and this is probably the main reason that it failed in >>>>the ssdf list. >>>> >>>>The bug is in playing and hiarcs could probably be a better program in >>>>tournament time control if it knew to clear its hash tables after every move >>>>because learning from previous search is bad if it is done in the wrong way. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>>I think you are too quick to draw conclusions. This "strange-moves-from- >>>Hiarcs-that-can't-be-reproduced-by-others-bug" is well known, but how >>>frequent is it? I have observed plenty of long time control games by >>>Hiarcs 7.32 and it is very seldom I suspect this to happen. But who knows? >>>I guess one would have to look carefully at every game afterwards. My >>>personal quess is that keeping the hash tables is better, but I have >>>no "proofs" . >>> >>>As to the strength of Hiarcs and Crafty, I have my own firm opinion >>>but it is "unscientific" and I'll keep it to myself :) >>> >>>Ralf >> >>The problem is mainly long time control problem. >> >>Hiarcs won Crafty17.11 3.5:.5 in my 40/40 games on one pentiumIII450 but this >>time control is faster than tournament time also because of the fact thatthe >>sides cannot ponder when 3 hours/40 moves on one computer is similiar to 2 >>hours/40 moves on 2 computers. >> >>There are cases when the problem does not lead to strange moves but lead to a >>longer "think" by hiarcs and it also can cause later mistakes on time trouble. >> >>In the case of the game that I played between hiarcs and crafty hiarcs did not >>blunder by Bxb6 but needed a long time to avoid it(at longer time control it >>even plays Bxb6). > >Yes, I didn't read your post carefully enough. Anyway, I wonder how often >this happens. This, the other bug and some serious misevaluations Hiarcs >does is something I hope will be worked out in the next version. >I like the program alot but have always felt it could be significantly >stronger if tuned better. If Mark Uniacke posted here I could produce >a pretty long list with "complaints". Eh, no wonder he doesn't... > >It's not just the wellknown king safety problem. E.g. the value >of pieces must be modyfied according to the position. It has lost >many games because of this. > >Ralf I think that another problem is the limit for the selective depth of hiarcs. Hiarcs can never see more than 31 plies forward and it may be also a problem in long time control. I think that you will have a long list of complains to every programmer because finding problem is easier than fixing them and fixing one problem may cause another problem. I believe that the problems that I posted about some wrong learning from previous search and in this post about the maximal search depth are more easy to fix without creating other problems. Uri
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