Author: blass uri
Date: 16:38:01 07/17/00
Go up one level in this thread
On July 17, 2000 at 19:10:29, KarinsDad wrote: >On July 17, 2000 at 11:59:35, blass uri wrote: > >>On July 17, 2000 at 09:32:18, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On July 17, 2000 at 08:05:57, blass uri wrote: >>> >>>>On July 17, 2000 at 07:22:41, Graham Laight wrote: >>>> >>>>>I'm afraid I still feel that Junior could have come out ahead (instead of >>>>>level)in this tournament by beating Bareev and Khalifman - and possibly by not >>>>>losing with such apparent ease to Kramnik. Continuing the game against Anand >>>>>might possibly have gained an extra half point as well. >>>>> >>>>>I think that Amir has an aspiration to make his program demonstably better than >>>>>Deep Blue (this certainly comes across in his interviews published on the >>>>>Chessbase Website coverage of Dortmund (www.chessbase.com) before the Kramnik >>>>>game). If so, as a (hopefully!) impartial member of the viewing public, I'm >>>>>afraid to say that I've yet to be convinced. >>>>> >>>>>As evidence, I point firstly to the games against Bareev and Khalifman. On both >>>>>occasions when Deep Blue '97 gained an advantage over Gary Kasparov (who's a >>>>>better player than anyone at Dortmund was), it parlayed that advantage into >>>>>victory - whilst Deep Junior twice failed conspicuously to "slam in the lamb". >>>>> >>>>>I would also point to the game against Khalifman. Here we see Deep Junior lose >>>>>to a combination of blocked centre and king attack - classic anti computer >>>>>methods which have both been well known for a long time. They work because, in >>>>>this case, nothing short of truly massive search depth is going to help you to >>>>>make the correct moves. >>>>> >>>>>However, for both king attack and blocked centre, Deep Blue '97 demonstrated >>>>>that it's evaluation knowledge was able to adequately handle the challenge. >>>> >>>> >>>>I guess that the evaluation of Deep Junior could do better if Deep Junior could >>>>search the same number of nodes. >>>> >>>>I believe that Deep Junior is better than Deeper blue if you assume 200,000,000 >>>>nodes per second for deep Junior. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>> >>>I believe pigs can fly. But only if you increase the density of the atmosphere >>>by a factor of 10,000 or so. >>> >>>DB has two almost insurmountable advantages: (1) it is faster than anything is >>>going to be for a _long_ time; (2) using special-purpose hardware they did >>>everything in the eval that was suggested by GM players, because they could do >>>so with no speed penalty. >> >> >>Deeper blue had one significant disadvantage. >>They had no time to test their evaluation. >> >> >> >> DJ and every other PC program has _many_ >>>"concessions" in the evaluation due to speed considerations. DJ's king safety >>>would fail if it was 1,000 times faster... because there are some things that >>>speed won't help until we reach the point where the computer can see 30-50 plies >> >> >>I think that these things are not relevant in the games that it lost. >>I think that in the game against kramnik the mistake of deep Junior was Kh8 and >>Deep Junior could see 4 plies after it that it is in trouble. > >You seem to be contradicting yourself. > >You are stating that the lack of the king safety failure due to the event >horizon is not relevant and then turn around and state the DJ found out it was >in trouble 4 ply later (once king safety failure was in scope of the event >horizon). > >4 Ply is 6^4 or about 1300x faster hardware required. I disagree computers can see 4 plies in the important lines often by being 50-100 times faster or even less than it. The 4 plies are not quiet moves so I will not be surprised if being only 20 times faster is enough. Or 2000x more processors. >Event horizon for king safety is totally relevant here, otherwise, DJ would have >probably played a different move. > >If I was a GM, I would attempt to add positional elements that the program would >not detect until way later in the game such as permanent weaknesses for the >program and permanent strengths for the GM. I agree that adding knowledge is important but my point was that I believe that Deep Junior is better than Deeper blue based on equal numbers of nps Uri
This page took 0.01 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.