Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 17:11:03 07/17/00
Go up one level in this thread
On July 17, 2000 at 11:59:35, blass uri wrote: >On July 17, 2000 at 09:32:18, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On July 17, 2000 at 08:05:57, blass uri wrote: >> >>>On July 17, 2000 at 07:22:41, Graham Laight wrote: >>> >>>>I'm afraid I still feel that Junior could have come out ahead (instead of >>>>level)in this tournament by beating Bareev and Khalifman - and possibly by not >>>>losing with such apparent ease to Kramnik. Continuing the game against Anand >>>>might possibly have gained an extra half point as well. >>>> >>>>I think that Amir has an aspiration to make his program demonstably better than >>>>Deep Blue (this certainly comes across in his interviews published on the >>>>Chessbase Website coverage of Dortmund (www.chessbase.com) before the Kramnik >>>>game). If so, as a (hopefully!) impartial member of the viewing public, I'm >>>>afraid to say that I've yet to be convinced. >>>> >>>>As evidence, I point firstly to the games against Bareev and Khalifman. On both >>>>occasions when Deep Blue '97 gained an advantage over Gary Kasparov (who's a >>>>better player than anyone at Dortmund was), it parlayed that advantage into >>>>victory - whilst Deep Junior twice failed conspicuously to "slam in the lamb". >>>> >>>>I would also point to the game against Khalifman. Here we see Deep Junior lose >>>>to a combination of blocked centre and king attack - classic anti computer >>>>methods which have both been well known for a long time. They work because, in >>>>this case, nothing short of truly massive search depth is going to help you to >>>>make the correct moves. >>>> >>>>However, for both king attack and blocked centre, Deep Blue '97 demonstrated >>>>that it's evaluation knowledge was able to adequately handle the challenge. >>> >>> >>>I guess that the evaluation of Deep Junior could do better if Deep Junior could >>>search the same number of nodes. >>> >>>I believe that Deep Junior is better than Deeper blue if you assume 200,000,000 >>>nodes per second for deep Junior. >>> >>>Uri >> >> >>I believe pigs can fly. But only if you increase the density of the atmosphere >>by a factor of 10,000 or so. >> >>DB has two almost insurmountable advantages: (1) it is faster than anything is >>going to be for a _long_ time; (2) using special-purpose hardware they did >>everything in the eval that was suggested by GM players, because they could do >>so with no speed penalty. > > >Deeper blue had one significant disadvantage. >They had no time to test their evaluation. > Remember that it only beat the best player in the world. How good do you think it might be with a couple of years of tuning on (say) ICC? > > > DJ and every other PC program has _many_ >>"concessions" in the evaluation due to speed considerations. DJ's king safety >>would fail if it was 1,000 times faster... because there are some things that >>speed won't help until we reach the point where the computer can see 30-50 plies > > >I think that these things are not relevant in the games that it lost. >I think that in the game against kramnik the mistake of deep Junior was Kh8 and >Deep Junior could see 4 plies after it that it is in trouble. > >I believe alterman that in the game against piket Deep Junior could get a >winning advantage in the opening and with faster hardware it could probably find >the right move that open the position. > >I agree that there were later in the game positions that it does not understand >even if you do the software 1000 times faster but it is not relevant after >avoiding the error at move 8. > >Uri
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