Author: Ed Schröder
Date: 23:00:31 07/17/00
Go up one level in this thread
On July 17, 2000 at 20:08:06, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On July 17, 2000 at 17:02:22, Peter Kappler wrote: > >>On July 17, 2000 at 16:09:09, Amir Ban wrote: >> >>>On July 17, 2000 at 07:22:41, Graham Laight wrote: >>> >>>>I'm afraid I still feel that Junior could have come out ahead (instead of >>>>level)in this tournament by beating Bareev and Khalifman - and possibly by not >>>>losing with such apparent ease to Kramnik. Continuing the game against Anand >>>>might possibly have gained an extra half point as well. >>>> >>>>I think that Amir has an aspiration to make his program demonstably better than >>>>Deep Blue (this certainly comes across in his interviews published on the >>>>Chessbase Website coverage of Dortmund (www.chessbase.com) before the Kramnik >>>>game). If so, as a (hopefully!) impartial member of the viewing public, I'm >>>>afraid to say that I've yet to be convinced. >>>> >>>>As evidence, I point firstly to the games against Bareev and Khalifman. On both >>>>occasions when Deep Blue '97 gained an advantage over Gary Kasparov (who's a >>>>better player than anyone at Dortmund was), it parlayed that advantage into >>>>victory - whilst Deep Junior twice failed conspicuously to "slam in the lamb". >>>> >>>>I would also point to the game against Khalifman. Here we see Deep Junior lose >>>>to a combination of blocked centre and king attack - classic anti computer >>>>methods which have both been well known for a long time. They work because, in >>>>this case, nothing short of truly massive search depth is going to help you to >>>>make the correct moves. >>>> >>>>However, for both king attack and blocked centre, Deep Blue '97 demonstrated >>>>that it's evaluation knowledge was able to adequately handle the challenge. >>>>Indeed, in game 2 in '97, Deep Blue not only handled the blocked centre, it >>>>turned it into a win! >>>> >>>>It took Deep Blue 2 attempts to beat Gary Kasparov, the world's best player - >>>>maybe another year of work will push Deep Junior to a position where it can try >>>>to win these tournaments, instead of settling for a middling position. >>>> >>>>But let's not be completely churlish - Dortmund 2000 was indeed a fantastic >>>>performance by Deep Junior - and a landmark in computer chess history, since >>>>here is both a computer and a program which one can buy in the shops! >>> >>>I disagree with most of this, but it's your opinion, and if experience teaches >>>us anything, it's useless to argue. >>> >>>For the record, I'm not trying to prove that I'm better than Deep Blue. I think >>>I've already shown this some time ago, and I'm not the only one who can say so >>>either. >>> >>>Looking at the (very few) games of DB, I don't see that it had either better >>>evaluation or deeper search than today's top programs. >>> >>>Amir >> >> >>I must say I'm skeptical, though I would have a good laugh if it were true. >> >>Are you aware of any positions from the 2nd Kasparov-DB match where Junior (or >>any other micro) plays a clearly better move than DB? Not that this would >>conclusively prove a thing - it would just be interesting. >> >>--Peter > >Or we can take a few of the positions from the DB log files and try them on >"top programs". I'm not aware of any "top program" that can do 16-18 plies >in the middlegame... Please post these positions that would be fun and you might be surprised about the outcome. But the key-moves must be clear as there should be no discussion what is the best move. I for example don't believe the Rc6 vs Rc7 is a good position as this is a case of 0.10 (or so) in evaluation. Ed
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