Author: Amir Ban
Date: 02:50:54 07/18/00
Go up one level in this thread
On July 17, 2000 at 20:01:56, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On July 17, 2000 at 16:09:09, Amir Ban wrote: > >>On July 17, 2000 at 07:22:41, Graham Laight wrote: >> >>>I'm afraid I still feel that Junior could have come out ahead (instead of >>>level)in this tournament by beating Bareev and Khalifman - and possibly by not >>>losing with such apparent ease to Kramnik. Continuing the game against Anand >>>might possibly have gained an extra half point as well. >>> >>>I think that Amir has an aspiration to make his program demonstably better than >>>Deep Blue (this certainly comes across in his interviews published on the >>>Chessbase Website coverage of Dortmund (www.chessbase.com) before the Kramnik >>>game). If so, as a (hopefully!) impartial member of the viewing public, I'm >>>afraid to say that I've yet to be convinced. >>> >>>As evidence, I point firstly to the games against Bareev and Khalifman. On both >>>occasions when Deep Blue '97 gained an advantage over Gary Kasparov (who's a >>>better player than anyone at Dortmund was), it parlayed that advantage into >>>victory - whilst Deep Junior twice failed conspicuously to "slam in the lamb". >>> >>>I would also point to the game against Khalifman. Here we see Deep Junior lose >>>to a combination of blocked centre and king attack - classic anti computer >>>methods which have both been well known for a long time. They work because, in >>>this case, nothing short of truly massive search depth is going to help you to >>>make the correct moves. >>> >>>However, for both king attack and blocked centre, Deep Blue '97 demonstrated >>>that it's evaluation knowledge was able to adequately handle the challenge. >>>Indeed, in game 2 in '97, Deep Blue not only handled the blocked centre, it >>>turned it into a win! >>> >>>It took Deep Blue 2 attempts to beat Gary Kasparov, the world's best player - >>>maybe another year of work will push Deep Junior to a position where it can try >>>to win these tournaments, instead of settling for a middling position. >>> >>>But let's not be completely churlish - Dortmund 2000 was indeed a fantastic >>>performance by Deep Junior - and a landmark in computer chess history, since >>>here is both a computer and a program which one can buy in the shops! >> >>I disagree with most of this, but it's your opinion, and if experience teaches >>us anything, it's useless to argue. >> >>For the record, I'm not trying to prove that I'm better than Deep Blue. I think >>I've already shown this some time ago, and I'm not the only one who can say so >>either. >> >>Looking at the (very few) games of DB, I don't see that it had either better >>evaluation or deeper search than today's top programs. >> >>Amir > > >So you are regularly searching full-width to 17-18 plies, and I don't mean your >odd ply counting, but something comparable to everyone else? You did notice >the explanation for their depth 10/7 notation that came from the deep blue >team? > >I don't think anyone comes within 4 plies of what they are doing. As far as >your already having proved that you are as good or better than DB, and others >having done so to, I guess I missed that somehow... You are basing everything on the technical spec of the machine. This is not what I'm looking at. I don't doubt that Deeper Blue had this number of processors and could do that number of million NPS. I'm also not interested in the debate about what its advertised ply count really means. What I want to see is where this immense technical spec shows up in the game and I don't see any evidence that it achieved more than what other programs get with a fraction of those resources. When I buy a television, I look for picture quality, and I trust my own eyes. I'm not interested in the number of transistors inside and the high price tag, if I can't see what I get for this. Amir
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