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Subject: Re: q-search question

Author: Landon Rabern

Date: 09:24:49 07/20/00

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On July 20, 2000 at 08:15:17, Bas Hamstra wrote:

>On July 19, 2000 at 14:51:17, Landon Rabern wrote:
>
>>On July 19, 2000 at 14:08:23, Andrew Dados wrote:
>>
>>>On July 19, 2000 at 14:00:16, Landon Rabern wrote:
>>>
>>>>On July 19, 2000 at 13:22:47, Andrew Dados wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On July 19, 2000 at 12:03:10, Landon Rabern wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I have been discarding all captures where attackervalue>DefenderValue in my
>>>>>>q-search which speeds it up significantly, but I know that it is throwing away
>>>>>>some captures that are good.  So I implemented a SEE function.  The SEE returns
>>>>>>the correct value on tests I have run.  When I put this into my program so that
>>>>>>if (attackervalue>DefenderValue)&&(SEE>=0) I keep the move as well, I got worse
>>>>>>results on the WAC test suite.  Before I put the see in I got 270/300 at 60
>>>>>>seconds per move and after I got 257/300 at 60 seconds per move.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Is it just that there are no capture sequences in this test that need the extra
>>>>>>captures, or is there something wrong with my SEE function?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks for any help,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Landon W. Rabern
>>>>>
>>>>>It would be of help if you post some relevant positions. I may just guess now
>>>>>that if you do check detection in qsearch you may find some mating combinations
>>>>>with 'losing captures', when recapturing piece is overloaded simply, so in next
>>>>>move capture is mate. (Or you may do some non-capturing,checking moves in
>>>>>qsearch which complicates matters still). With SEE you miss those. Question is
>>>>>if average speedup of SEE in non-tactical positions offsets those few missed by
>>>>>using SEE....
>>>>>
>>>>>-Andrew-
>>>>
>>>>I do not do checks in q-search.  The problem is that I should be missing fewer
>>>>tactical positions with SEE, than with just throwing all captures out where
>>>>attackerValue>defenderValue.
>>>>
>>>>Landon
>>>
>>>So maybe you are much faster then SEE with throwing away all captures where
>>>attackerValue>defenderValue... Single out those positions and compare PVs and
>>>nodes produced with both versions of your qsearch ply by ply. Then maybe you/we
>>>can learn what's going on. Do you reach extra ply or does your program find
>>>those moves one/few plys sooner?
>>>
>>>-Andrew-
>>
>>I rememeber reaching an extra ply in many cases, I can not take a look at the
>>PV's until late tonight since I am at work now and will be working late to get
>>the product out on time.
>>
>>Landon
>
>I cannot imagine throwing A>D captures out of the qsearch works. Even if it
>solves many testpositions, it cannot be accurate in games.
Would you mind trying it out to see if you get similar results?  I throw
everything out where A>D except I keep all captures where the captureer is a
king.

>
>Furhter I think you should compare SEE pruning with no pruning at all. And then
>you should see that SEE goes deeper on average. Or else your SEE has a bug OR
>your SEE is too slow.

With SEE it does go deeper on average than with nothing.  And my SEE function is
very fast.

>
>Good way to debug your SEE is to compare the SEE result with the QSearch result.
>If this doesn't work, make a new special qsearch, that simulates SEE behaviour.
>It doesn't matter if it is slow, as long as it works accurate. Comparing the two
>will show you if there are bugs.

I set up a bunch of mock positions that had a bunch of capture/recapture and ran
through them on paper and then with the SEE, same result, so I think it is
correct.

Last night I ran WAC with no pruning in the qsearch and I got 253/300 compared
to with SEE 257/300 and with A>D plus king caps 270/300.  The I ran on WCSAC and
got 745/1002 with SEE and 752/1002 with A>D +king caps.


If anybody has ever tried just cutting with A>D + king caps let me know.  I know
that it should be doing worse since it would leave a hung pawn that could be
captured by a queen at the end of the search.

Thanks,

Landon



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