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Subject: Re: Summary of DB DJ debate.

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 07:22:17 07/22/00

Go up one level in this thread


On July 22, 2000 at 05:29:29, Ed Schröder wrote:

>On July 21, 2000 at 22:58:36, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On July 21, 2000 at 21:14:46, Ralf Elvsén wrote:
>>
>>>Trying to forget the NPS-discussion a second, I think one should
>>>also look at the chess played. I am just a clubplayer and my
>>>opinion is essentially worthless. Nevertheless...
>>>
>>>The chess Junior displayed at Dortmund was IMHO the same thing that happens
>>>on my own PC but one or two (or three?) plies deeper. When I look
>>>at the DB - Kasparov match 97 I think I see something different,
>>>another dimension (yeah, I can't defend this point).
>>>
>>>I think it is possible that DBs potential performance against humans
>>>wouldn't be extremely much higher than DJs. But DB could still possibly
>>>crush DJ. These two scenarios aren't incompatible. Isn't it the
>>>old discussion that rating differences are exaggerated in
>>>comp - comp games?
>>>
>>>It would be interesting to hear what strong chess players think
>>>(especially Kasparov :)
>>>
>>>my zero cents
>>>
>>>Ralf
>>
>>
>>One point Hsu made when he told me about the original 10 game match with the
>>200K nps DB, was that it won ten games non-stop due to one thing:  a lack of
>>king safety understanding.  He played 5 games vs Genius and 5 vs the rebel
>>version that was current back then.  And he was quite specific about the
>>problems they had defending against an attack.  The problem back then was that
>>computers didn't attack very well (they still don't).  And they were (and still
>>are for the most part) horrible at detecting attacks until it was too late.
>>
>>I think in normal games, 10 0 would be nearly impossible to do.  But if your
>>opponent cheerfully allows you to attack game after game, and sits there
>>happily while you do, then 10 0 is quite easy to understand.
>>
>>I would shudder at the thought of a player like cptnbluebear, or insight, or
>>several other very strong humans on ICC, if they attack like they attack,
>>but if they had the tactical acuity of a computer to prevent the occasional
>>blunder that loses won games.  Hsu said he was surprised at first, but once
>>he saw what was going on, it was obvious the micros were simply missing some
>>important evaluation that he was doing after working with Joel and others.
>>
>>Just some more data to consider...
>
>Have you ever heard me (or Lang) complaining in the sense Hsu did concerning
>last years 6 Paderborn games giving all kind of explanations for the losses?
>Did I question the status of the Hsu games moaning concerning the conditions,
>hash table size, strongest settings etc. etc...?
>
>No.
>
>Moaning if you lose usually won't do you any good neither does it change
>the result.
>
>All I asked for are the games. Still don't have them. I would say that is the
>least you can do when you shout 10-0 into public.
>
>Ed


I would simply think that Hsu was trying to set the record straight after a
few statements were made in public.  Since DB wasn't going to play again, and
since someone was claiming to have beaten DB Jr, which is still impossibly
strong (re-read the quote from Hsu I posted), he wanted to set the record
straight.  I don't blame him...




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