Author: blass uri
Date: 02:05:44 07/25/00
Go up one level in this thread
On July 25, 2000 at 01:40:29, Alvaro Polo wrote: >On July 25, 2000 at 01:34:41, Alvaro Polo wrote: > >>On July 25, 2000 at 00:07:33, Christophe Theron wrote: >> >>>On July 24, 2000 at 16:30:39, blass uri wrote: >>> >>>>On July 24, 2000 at 15:59:31, Chris Carson wrote: >>>> >>>>>The SSDF Rating List 1997-02-05 >>>>>53540 games played by 162 computers >>>>> Rating +- Games Won Oppo >>>>> ------ --- ----- --- ---- >>>>> 1 Rebel 8.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2462 27 736 67% 2336 >>>>> 2 MChess Pro 6.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2435 27 683 62% 2350 >>>>> 3 Hiarcs 5.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2427 67 121 60% 2359 >>>>> 4 Genius 5.0 Pentium 90 MHz 2420 30 558 59% 2352 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Avg Rating for the top 4 programs = 2436. >>>>> >>>>>If DB had a 90% (+36 =4 -0) score against these programs, >>>>>then the DB rating in comp vs comp games would have been 2824. >>>>>It's TPR against Kasparov was 2862 (human vs comp). >>>> >>>>+36 =4 -0 score is 95% score and not 90% score. >>>> >>>>I did not read a claim that Deeper blue did +36 =4 -0 against these programs. >>>> >>>>I remember a claim that Deep blue Junior That is weaker than Deep blue did 38:2 >>>>score against programs but I do not know exactly the name of the programs and it >>>>is better for Hsu not to tell the names of the programs because it is better to >>>>say nothing when you have no proof. >>>> >>>>I know that Deep blue Junior lost 3:0 against Rebel and drew 1.5-1.5 against >>>>Rebel-tiger. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>You should not give only part of the information. If you quote a match result, >>>you should give as much information as possible. >>> >>>The games took place in the hall near the tournament hall were the 1999 WCCC >>>took place, in Paderborn, in June 1999. >>> >>>There were several PCs connected to Deep Blue Junior thru an Internet >>>connection. Deep Blue Junior was in free access and I'm very surprised that I >>>have been the only one to try to play with my program against the monster. >>> >>>I could not bring the 600MHz Kryotech computer I was using for the regular >>>tournament. It was only 20 to 30 meters away from the tournament hall, but the >>>Kryotech computer is rather heavy, and anyway there was no power supply >>>(actually that's what I thought - later I discovered a power supply nearby and >>>used it). >>> >>>So I brought my Pentium 150MHz laptop and decided to try some games. I thought I >>>was going to be totally destroyed anyway, so it was just for fun. >>> >>>Deep Blue Junior was always using 1 second per move. >>> >>>I set up Chess Tiger 11.9 (Paderborn version) to play the game in 15 minutes. >>>Permanent brain was turned OFF. The reason to use this setup is that I wanted to >>>see what could happen if Chess Tiger was using a top level hardware of year >>>2000. I thought that such hardware would probably be 15 times faster than my >>>P150 notebook. And that DBJr was not using permanent brain. >>> >>>Why did I do that? At that time I had heard rumours that Hsu was going to >>>release a PC card with one of the DB chips on it. I wanted to know if it was >>>possibly going to make the top PC programs look ridiculous. >>> >>>Chess Tiger was using 8Mb hash tables. >>> >>>Here are the two games played on the P150 Notebook: >>> >>> >>>[Event "during the WCCC99"] >>>[Site "Paderborn, Germany, via Internet"] >>>[Date "1999.06.17"] >>>[Round "?"] >>>[White "Chess Tiger 11.9"] >>>[Black "Deep Blue Junior"] >>>[Result "*"] >>> >>>1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Nxd5 4. c4 Nf6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Nc3 c5 7. d5 exd5 >>>8. Nxd5 Be7 9. Nxf6+ Bxf6 10. Qxd8+ Bxd8 11. Be3 Be7 12. Bd3 Nc6 13. O-O Nb4 >>>14. Be4 f5 15. Bb1 Bf6 16. Re1 Kf7 17. Bc1 Re8 18. Rxe8 Kxe8 19. a3 Nc6 >>>20. Bc2 Na5 21. Be3 Bxb2 22. Re1 Kf7 23. Bxc5 Nxc4 24. Bd3 Nxa3 25. Re2 Bc1 >>>26. Nd4 b6 27. Bd6 a5 28. Ra2 Be6 29. Nxe6 Kxe6 30. Bxa3 Bxa3 31. Rxa3 Rc8 >>>32. Kf1 g6 33. Ke2 Rc6 34. Kd2 Rd6 35. Rb3 h6 36. Kc3 * >>>(the game was stopped here due to an operator mistake. >>>DB Jr does not allow any takeback. But the position looks like a win >>>for Chess Tiger, whose score was at that time over +2.00) >>>(time control was 1s/move for DB Jr, and 15mn/game for Chess Tiger. >>>Chess Tiger ran on a P150 notebook in a W95 Dos box, with 8Mb hash tables) >>> >>>In this game Tiger was out of book after move 5 (Nf3). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>[Event "during the WCCC99"] >>>[Site "Paderborn, Germany, via Internet"] >>>[Date "1999.06.17"] >>>[Round "?"] >>>[White "Chess Tiger 11.9"] >>>[Black "Deep Blue Junior"] >>>[Result "0-1"] >>> >>>1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Nd5 Nf6 5. Nxb4 Nxb4 6. c3 Nc6 7. d4 exd4 >>>8. e5 Qe7 9. cxd4 d6 10. Bb5 dxe5 11. Bxc6+ bxc6 12. dxe5 Ba6 13. Qa4 Bb5 >>>14. Qh4 Qe6 15. h3 O-O 16. Be3 Nd5 17. Bc5 Rfb8 18. Qe4 Nf6 19. Qe3 Nd5 >>>20. Qe4 Nf6 21. Qc2 Rd8 22. Be3 Bd3 23. Qc3 Ne4 24. Nd4 Nxc3 25. Nxe6 fxe6 >>>26. bxc3 Rab8 27. Bc1 Bc4 28. a3 Rb3 29. h4 Rxc3 30. Rh3 Rc2 31. Re3 Rd4 >>>32. g3 c5 33. a4 Bd5 34. a5 c4 35. Ba3 Rdd2 36. Rb1 h5 37. Bc5 Rxf2 >>>38. Rc3 Rfe2+ 39. Kd1 Rcd2+ 40. Kc1 Ra2 41. Rb8+ Kh7 42. Rb2 Rexb2 >>>43. Ra3 Rc2+ 44. Kd1 Rd2+ 45. Ke1 Re2+ 46. Kd1 Rad2+ 47. Kc1 Rc2+ >>>48. Kd1 Red2+ 49. Ke1 Rh2 50. Kd1 Rcd2+ 51. Kc1 Rdg2 52. Bf2 Rxf2 >>>53. Rd3 cxd3 54. Kd1 Rf1 0-1 >>>(time control was 1s/move for DB Jr, and 15mn/game for Chess Tiger. >>>Chess Tiger ran on a P150 notebook in a W95 Dos box, with 8Mb hash tables) >>> >>>In this game Tiger was out of book after move 3 (Nc3). >>> >>>OK, this time Tiger gets its spanking. >>> >>> >>> >>>The third game was played the next day, after Ed came with his PII-333MHz >>>Notebook (he is obviously richer than me :). I borrowed the PII-333 Notebook and >>>played the third game: >>> >>> >>>[Event "during the WCCC99"] >>>[Site "Paderborn, Germany, via Internet"] >>>[Date "1999.06.18"] >>>[Round "?"] >>>[White "Chess Tiger 11.9"] >>>[Black "Deep Blue Junior"] >>>[Result "*"] >>> >>>1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Nxd5 4. c4 Nf6 5. Nf3 e6 6. Nc3 c5 7. d5 exd5 >>>8. Nxd5 Nxd5 9. cxd5 Be7 10. Bb5+ Nd7 11. O-O O-O 12. Bf4 Qb6 13. Qd3 a6 >>>14. Bc4 Qxb2 15. Qe4 Bf6 16. Rab1 Qa3 17. d6 Rb8 18. Bc1 Qa5 19. Bd3 g6 >>>20. Bh6 Bg7 21. Bxg7 Kxg7 22. Qe7 Qxa2 23. Ne5 Qd5 24. Nxd7 Bxd7 25. Be4 Qe6 >>>26. Qxe6 fxe6 27. Rxb7 Rxb7 28. Bxb7 Bb5 29. Ra1 Rb8 30. d7 Bxd7 >>>31. Bxa6 Ra8 32. Rd1 Ba4 33. Rd6 Bb3 34. Rb6 Bd5 35. f3 c4 36. Kf2 c3 >>>37. Ke3 Ra7 38. Kd3 Rc7 39. Kc2 Kf6 40. Rb4 g5 41. Bd3 h6 42. h4 Rc5 >>>43. Rg4 Ke7 44. hxg5 hxg5 45. Ra4 Kf6 46. Ra3 Ke5 47. Ra4 Rc7 48. Rg4 Kf6 >>>49. Ra4 Rc5 50. Ra3 Ke5 51. Ra4 Rc8 52. Rg4 Kf6 53. Ra4 * >>>(here the game was stopped because the notebook's battery was exhausted >>>and the notebook turned itself off automatically. It has not been possible >>>to resume the game because we needed some time to charge the battery and the >>>tournament hall was about to close. >>>It is not clear what the outcome of the game could be, but it looked like >>>DB Jr was unable to improve its position) >>>(time control was 1s/move for DB Jr, and 10mn/game for Chess Tiger. >>>Chess Tiger ran on a PII-333 notebook in a W95 Dos box, with 8Mb hash tables) >>> >>> >>>So the result of the match is 1.5-1.5 after adjudication, but I agree it could >>>have been 2-1 in favor of DB Jr. >>> >>>I must add that there have been at least 2 (or was it 3?) other games played >>>with the P150 Notebook, but I did not save the games because each time I did an >>>operator mistake very early (just after the end of the opening). >>> >>>You have to understand that DB Jr did not allow any takeback. So in case of a >>>mouse slip, which happens too often, it was impossible to continue. I was very >>>anxious during this small match, and that is the reason behind all these >>>mistakes. >>> >>>I was anxious because I did not expect to win ANY game. But as you see, Tiger >>>simply won the first game... >>> >>>So now let's see what happened. On his hardware, Tiger was computing only 25,000 >>>positions per second. At 15mn/game time control, that means it was computing >>>375,000 positions per search in average. >>> >>>Isn't Deep Blue supposed to compute way faster? I don't remember the numbers. >>>Was it 1M nodes per second per chip, or 2M nodes per second? >>> >>>If it's only 1M nodes per second and it could only use 3/4 of a second for its >>>search (the rest being taken by "downloading stuffs into the chip" as Bob said), >>>then it's still 750,000 positions per search, twice the number of positions that >>>Tiger could compute during its search on P150. >>> >>> >>>So my conclusion is that I have seen nothing special in this match. I have seen >>>2 chess programs fighting, the one computing more nodes taking the advantage, >>>but certainly not crushing its opponent as some people would like us to believe. >>> >>>The funny thing is that before playing the match I thought I would be crushed. >>>You see, I have been the victim of the propaganda myself... >>> >>> >>>Now if you ask me about the chances of Chess Tiger against Deeper Blue and its >>>200 processors at tournament time controls, I simply say that I think that Chess >>>Tiger has absolutely no chance. >>> >>>But against a single chip, I would say that a program like Chess Tiger running >>>on current top hardware has its chances. >>> >>>Remember that in similar circumstances (fast games played in the same hall) >>>Rebel won against Deep Blue Junior by 3-0. >>> >>>And you know what? Given that Deep Blue does no forward pruning, this is NO >>>SURPRISE. >>> >>> >> >>This is really interesting. Tiger at 375,000 nps against DBJ at 750,000 nps and >>obtaining 1.5-1-5 or possibly 1-2 suggests that DBJ was really DBJ and not some >>crippled version running under 2200 Elo. It also suggests that the full 480 >>processor DB, at 200M nps, if CT has a comp-comp rating of nearly 2650, would be >>over 3200 Elo comp-comp (8 doublings of speed at 70 Elo each doubling) >> >>Alvaro >> > >Sorry, this calculation is wrong. I misread and confused 375,000 positions per >search with nodes per second. If would be 560 Elo above the 375,000 pos per >search CT, not the SSDF tested Chess Tiger. > >Alvaro Your calculation is wrong because of diminishing return from speed. Uri
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