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Subject: Re: Analysing old master games with today's programs

Author: Mark Young

Date: 23:28:25 08/08/00

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On August 08, 2000 at 17:37:44, Uri Blass wrote:

>On August 08, 2000 at 16:29:59, walter irvin wrote:
>
>>On August 08, 2000 at 10:33:34, Peter Hegger wrote:
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>This has probably been done to a certain extent already. I'm wondering how the
>>>games of the old masters, i.e. Morphy, Steinitz, Tarrasch etc...stand up under
>>>the scrutiny of today's best computers. Are the games still as clean and
>>>brilliant as they seemed to be a hundred years ago? Or have they been found to
>>>be error ridden relics of days gone by?
>>>I'm wondering in particular about the "evergreen"  and the "immortal" games.
>>>Also, Bobby Fischer's "game of the century" against Byrne.
>>>Thanks for any help you can give me.
>>>Best Regards,
>>>Peter
>> i think you will find that the computer almost always out does the master in
>>key positions .computers crush just about all players in tactics .
>
>I disagree.
>They are better in short tactics but humans are better in long tactics.
>
> i guess the
>>the big question is could the computer reach a key position vs morphy ect
>>??????????? i think there are some old masters that had styles that a computer
>>just could not deal with 2 that come to mind are nimzovitch and petrosian .they
>>were masters of the closed position game .i think they would have laughed at
>>computers .on the other hand tactical masters like marshal morphy ect would have
>>got sliced and diced .
>
>Here is one winning moves of morphy
>
>[D]r1bq1rk1/ppp3p1/7p/3P2n1/2PQ1p2/1N5P/PPP2PPK/R1B2R2 b - - 0 1
>
>Morphy won by Nf3+
>programs need a long time to find this move because they cannot see deep enough.

This position is right up Fritz 6a's power alley, it was able to find Nf3+ in
less then 1 min.


New position
r1bq1rk1/ppp3p1/7p/3P2n1/2PQ1p2/1N5P/PPP2PPK/R1B2R2 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Fritz 6:

1...Bxh3
  +-  (3.06)   depth: 1/3   00:00:00
1...Bxh3 2.gxh3
  +-  (3.53)   depth: 1/3   00:00:00
1...f3
  +-  (2.91)   depth: 1/5   00:00:00
1...f3
  ±  (1.37)   depth: 1/5   00:00:00
1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5
  ±  (1.37)   depth: 2/8   00:00:00
1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.g3
  ±  (1.22)   depth: 3/12   00:00:00
1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 fxg2 4.Rxg2
  ±  (1.19)   depth: 4/12   00:00:00  2kN
1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 fxg2 5.Rxg2
  ±  (1.31)   depth: 5/21   00:00:00  13kN
1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 fxg2 5.Rxg2
  ±  (1.31)   depth: 6/20   00:00:00  27kN
1...Bxh3!
  ±  (1.28)   depth: 6/20   00:00:00  51kN
1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bf5 3.c3 Qe8 4.Bxf4 Qh5+ 5.Kg1
  ±  (1.28)   depth: 7/24   00:00:00  125kN
1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bf5 3.c3 Qe8 4.Bxf4 Qh5+ 5.Kg1 Bd3
  ±  (1.31)   depth: 8/23   00:00:00  260kN
1...f3
  ±  (1.28)   depth: 8/24   00:00:00  314kN
1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 Qf4+ 5.g3 Qf5 6.g4
  ±  (1.16)   depth: 9/26   00:00:01  731kN
1...Bxh3
  ±  (1.12)   depth: 9/27   00:00:01  1317kN
1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bc8 3.Bxf4 Ne6 4.dxe6 Qh4+ 5.Kg1 Rxf4 6.Qd5
  ±  (1.00)   depth: 9/27   00:00:02  1698kN
1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bc8 3.Bxf4 Ne6 4.dxe6 Qh4+ 5.Kg1 Rxf4 6.Qd5
  ±  (1.00)   depth: 10/27   00:00:03  2552kN
1...Bxh3 2.f3 Bc8 3.Bxf4 Ne6 4.dxe6 Qh4+ 5.Kg1 Rxf4 6.Qe3
  ±  (1.09)   depth: 11/31   00:00:07  5091kN
1...Bxh3--
  +-  (1.41)   depth: 12/32   00:00:22  16702kN
1...Bxh3
  +-  (1.41)   depth: 12/34   00:00:24  18532kN
1...f3
  ±  (1.37)   depth: 12/34   00:00:29  21596kN
1...f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Qf5 4.Qc3 Qf4+ 5.g3 Qf5 6.g4
  ±  (1.16)   depth: 12/36   00:00:38  28498kN
1...Nxh3
  ±  (1.12)   depth: 12/36   00:00:47  34730kN
1...Nxh3 2.gxh3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Qxh3+ 4.Kg1 Qg4+ 5.Kf1 Qf3 6.Rg1
  ±  (1.06)   depth: 12/36   00:00:50  37202kN
1...Nf3+
  ±  (1.03)   depth: 12/36   00:00:52  38577kN
1...Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3 Rf6 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3
  =  (0.25)   depth: 12/36   00:00:53  39290kN
1...Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3 Rf6 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3
  =  (0.00)   depth: 13/32   00:00:55  40746kN
1...Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3 Rf6 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3
  =  (0.00)   depth: 14/38   00:01:04  47886kN
1...Nf3+!
  =  (-0.16)   depth: 15/35   00:01:37  73480kN
1...Nf3+! 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.Bxf4 Rxf4 5.Qe3 Rf6 6.Qd4
  µ  (-0.84)   depth: 15/39   00:02:08  97818kN

(Young, 09.08.2000)

>
>They may suggest other sacrifices that are less convincing because white can
>avoid accepting them.
>
>Uri



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