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Subject: Re: Analysing old master games with today's programs

Author: Ed Schröder

Date: 23:26:32 08/09/00

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On August 09, 2000 at 21:43:38, Stephen A. Boak wrote:

>On August 09, 2000 at 01:45:22, Ed Schröder wrote:
>
>>On August 08, 2000 at 17:37:44, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On August 08, 2000 at 16:29:59, walter irvin wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 08, 2000 at 10:33:34, Peter Hegger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hello,
>>>>>This has probably been done to a certain extent already. I'm wondering how the
>>>>>games of the old masters, i.e. Morphy, Steinitz, Tarrasch etc...stand up under
>>>>>the scrutiny of today's best computers. Are the games still as clean and
>>>>>brilliant as they seemed to be a hundred years ago? Or have they been found to
>>>>>be error ridden relics of days gone by?
>>>>>I'm wondering in particular about the "evergreen"  and the "immortal" games.
>>>>>Also, Bobby Fischer's "game of the century" against Byrne.
>>>>>Thanks for any help you can give me.
>>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>>Peter
>>>> i think you will find that the computer almost always out does the master in
>>>>key positions .computers crush just about all players in tactics .
>>>
>>>I disagree.
>>>They are better in short tactics but humans are better in long tactics.
>>>
>>> i guess the
>>>>the big question is could the computer reach a key position vs morphy ect
>>>>??????????? i think there are some old masters that had styles that a computer
>>>>just could not deal with 2 that come to mind are nimzovitch and petrosian .they
>>>>were masters of the closed position game .i think they would have laughed at
>>>>computers .on the other hand tactical masters like marshal morphy ect would have
>>>>got sliced and diced .
>>>
>>>Here is one winning moves of morphy
>>>
>>>[D]r1bq1rk1/ppp3p1/7p/3P2n1/2PQ1p2/1N5P/PPP2PPK/R1B2R2 b - - 0 1
>>>
>>>Morphy won by Nf3+
>>>programs need a long time to find this move because they cannot see deep enough.
>>>
>>>They may suggest other sacrifices that are less convincing because white can
>>>avoid accepting them.
>>>
>>>Uri
>>
>>This one indeed takes a lot of time. I am sure others must be able to beat
>>the Rebel time easily. Saved this one in my database, nice to have.
>>
>>Rebel Century 2.0 = 51:39
>>Rebel Century 3.0 (beta) = 42:47
>>
>>Awful times.
>>
>>Ed
>>
>>
>>00:19  10.00  -1.32  1..f3 2.Bxg5 Qxg5 3.Rg1 Rf4 4.Qe3 Qh4 5.Nd2 fxg2 6.Rxg2 Bd7
>>7.Qg3 Qf6
>>00:32  10.01  -1.27  1..Bxh3 2.f3 Bf5 3.Bxf4 Bxc2 4.Be5 Rf7 5.Rae1
>>00:42  10.03  -1.23  1..Nxh3 2.gxh3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Qxh3+ 4.Kg1 Qg4+ 5.Kf1 Qf3 6.Rg1
>>Bg4 7.Rg2 Qe2+
>>01:48  11.00  -0.72  1..Nxh3 2.gxh3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Qxh3+ 4.Kg1 Qg4+ 5.Kf1 Qf3 6.Rg1
>>Bh3+ 7.Ke1 Rae8+ 8.Be3 Bg4 9.Rxg4 Qxg4
>>08:00  12.00  -0.30  1..Nxh3 2.d6 Ng5 3.Re1 Ne6 4.Qd5 Qxd6 5.Qxd6 cxd6 6.c3
>>21:01  13.00  -0.34  1..Nxh3 2.Nd2 Qh4 3.Nf3 Qh5 4.Kh1 Ng5+ 5.Nh2 f3 6.Rg1 Bf5
>>7.Bxg5
>>43:39  14.00  -0.42  1..Nxh3 2.Nd2 Qh4 3.Nf3 Qh5 4.Kh1 c5+ 5.dxc6 bxc6 6.Nh2
>>51:39  14.05  -0.42  1..Nf3+  [g5f3]
>>01:02:42  14.05  0.65  1..Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3 Rf5 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3+
>>b5
>>
>>
>>00:06:15 12.00  -0.27  1..Nxh3 2.d6 Ng5 3.Re1 cxd6 4.Kg1
>>                       g6 5.Bxf4 Ne6 6.Rxe6 Bxe6 7.Bxh6  (105) (0.00)
>>
>>00:18:40 13.00  -0.34  1..Nxh3 2.Nd2 Qh4 3.Nf3 Qh5 4.Kh1
>>                       Ng5 5.Nh2 f3 6.Rg1  (409) (0.00)
>>
>>00:34:45 14.00  -0.40  1..Nxh3 2.Nd2 Qh4 3.Nf3 Qh5 4.Kh1
>>                       Ng5 5.Nh2 f3 6.Rg1 fxg2 7.Rxg2 Bh3
>>                       8.Rg1 Rf5  (1257) (0.00)
>>
>>00:42:47 14.17  -0.40  1..Nf3+
>>00:50:06 14.17   0.65  1..Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3
>>                       Rf5 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3 b5  (2567) (0.00)
>>
>>00:56:24 15.00   0.52  1..Nf3+ 2.gxf3 Qh4 3.Rh1 Bxh3 4.c3
>>                       Rf5 5.Bxf4 Rxf4 6.Qe3 b5 7.Rae1
>>                       bxc4  (3038) (0.00)
>
>Ed,
>  How fast does Rebel Century with the best tactical personality settings (from
>your contest) do on this problem?
>  Any faster than your times posted above?

I quickly ran them with a maximum of 3 minutes:

Machied.eng  >3:00
Jeff.eng      0:13
Exner.eng     2:04
Q3.eng        0:06
WA8.eng      >3:00

Athlon 600, 128 Mb.

So the number 1 (Q3) and 2 (Jeff) of the contest behaved as one may expect!

Ed



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