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Subject: Re: Crafty 17.11 second time around it took 3 Seconds due to Learning!

Author: Mark Young

Date: 23:59:01 08/11/00

Go up one level in this thread


On August 11, 2000 at 15:46:55, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On August 11, 2000 at 12:42:14, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On August 11, 2000 at 09:01:14, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On August 11, 2000 at 07:42:42, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>That's not learning. crafty isn't using learning
>>>>in non-book positions.
>>>>
>>>>It's the killertables that speed it up then.
>>>
>>>
>>>Actually it does.  It has a "position learning file" that I keep turned off
>>>in my test directory so that it doesn't produce odd results like this.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Why is that silly thing in crafty anyway?
>>Now users can fool themselves!
>>
>
>
>It is there to prevent problems when the opponent plays 1. a3 and takes Crafty
>out of book.  And then carefully plays the same game over and over until he
>finds a way to beat it.  And then he repeats that won line over and over.  With
>position learning, this is impossible to do.

I for one like programs that have position learning, I wish all programs would
use them, just for the reason given. I know I cannot fool the program twice, and
as a consumer of chess programs I like this very much. It may just be human
nature, but when I know I can beat a chess program at will be exploiting this
weakness I lose interest in playing that chess program.

The first chess program that I owned that used position learning was a tabletop
model the Fidelity 2265. I’m not sure who was the first to use position
learning, but I ‘m still happy with my 2265 because of it.



>
>
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On August 10, 2000 at 19:49:11, Jorge Pichard wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On August 10, 2000 at 19:38:30, Jorge Pichard wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On August 10, 2000 at 19:00:45, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On August 10, 2000 at 16:17:47, Christoph Fieberg wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Unbelievable, but true:
>>>>>>>>I composed a position which is mate in 1 and can easily found, but Fritz6 on
>>>>>>>>Pentium III, 500 Mhz and 32 MB Hash needs more than 1 hour to show it (excatly
>>>>>>>>1:03:17)!!!
>>>>>>>>How do other computers react?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What's this for ridicilous simple position, you gotta
>>>>>>>be kidding:  2 nodes and 0.001 seconds is what DIEP needs at a
>>>>>>>pentiumpro200 (my internet computer)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>       D I E P  2.00
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>black timeleft=27:46.40.00
>>>>>>> - = - = - = - =   ...       1    ...
>>>>>>> = - = - = - = -   ...       2    ...
>>>>>>> o o o o o o o K   ...       3    ...
>>>>>>> N B B R = N R o   ...       4    ...
>>>>>>> n b b r q n r O   ...       5    ...
>>>>>>> O O O O O O O k   ...       6    ...
>>>>>>> - = - = - = - =   ...       7    ...
>>>>>>> Q - = - = - = -   ...       8    ...
>>>>>>>white timeleft=27:46.40.00
>>>>>>>white to move               type 'help' for command overview
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>anal
>>>>>>>Analysis mode is on
>>>>>>>process 0: engineflags = 0 denktime=10000000 maxtime=10000000
>>>>>>>00:00 2 (0) 1 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 311 (0) 2 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 1376 (0) 3 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 1638 (0) 4 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 1900 (0) 5 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 2162 (0) 6 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 2207 (0) 7 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 2252 (0) 8 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 2297 (0) 9 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 2342 (0) 10 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 2387 (0) 11 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 2432 (0) 12 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 2477 (0) 13 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 2522 (0) 14 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:00 2567 (0) 15 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 2612 (0) 16 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 2657 (0) 17 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 2702 (0) 18 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 2747 (0) 19 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 2792 (0) 20 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 2837 (0) 21 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 2882 (0) 22 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 2927 (0) 23 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 2972 (0) 24 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 3017 (0) 25 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 3062 (0) 26 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 3107 (0) 27 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>00:01 3152 (0) 28 MATE01 Qa1-h1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The position is
>>>>>>>>FEN: 8/8/pppppppK/NBBR1NRp/nbbrqnrP/PPPPPPPk/8/Q7 w - - 0 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It is possible to reach this position from starting position:
>>>>>>>>1.Sa3 Sa6 2.Sc4 Sc5 3.Sa5 Sa4 4.b3 b6 5.La3 La6 6.Lc5 Lc4 7.h4 h5 8.Th3 Th6
>>>>>>>>9.Td3 Te6 10.Td5 Te4 11.Sh3 Sh6 12.e3 e6 13.Le2 Le7 14.Lf3 Lf6 15.d3 d6 16.Ke2
>>>>>>>>Ke7 17.Dd2 Lc3 18.Te5 Lb4 19.Th1 Td4 20.Lc6 Dd7 21.Lb5 Th8 22.Td5 Kf6 23.Sg1 Sg4
>>>>>>>>24.Th3 Se5 25.Tg3 Kf5 26.Tf3+ Kg4 27.Tf5 a6 28.g3 c6 29.Sf3 Kh3 30.Sg5+ Kh2
>>>>>>>>31.Se4 Sg6 32.Kf3 Se5+ 33.Kf4 Sg6+ 34.Kg5 Se5 35.a3 Th6 36.c3 Tf6 37.De2 g6
>>>>>>>>38.Kh6 Sg4+ 39.Kh7 De7 40.Tf4 Tf5 41.Sg5 Df6 42.Df3 De5 43.Kg8 De4 44.Sh3 Tg5
>>>>>>>>45.Tf6 Sh6+ 46.Kh7 Sg4 47.Df5 Kg2 48.Kg7 Sh2 49.De5 Tg4 50.Sg5 Sf3 51.Sh7 Sg1
>>>>>>>>52.Df4 [52.Tf5 Se2 53.Sf6 Sf4 54.Se8 Kh2 55.Tg5 Kg2 56.Kh7 Kh2 57.Sg7 Kg2 58.Sf5
>>>>>>>>f6 59.f3 Kh2 60.Kh6 Kh3 Test it! What time do computers need to reach a certain
>>>>>>>>search depths?] 52...Se2 53.Df3+ Kh2 54.Tff5 Sf4 55.Dd1 Kg2 56.Tg5 Kh2 57.Sf6
>>>>>>>>Kg2 58.Sg8 Kh2 59.Se7 Kg2 60.Sf5 Kh2 61.Da1 Kg2 62.f3 f6 63.Kh6 Kh3 Mate in 1!
>>>>>>>>(64. Dh1#). What time do different programms need to show it in the display? 1-0
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>52.Tf5 leads to a position with White Queen on e5 (instead on a1).
>>>>>>>>FEN: 8/8/pppppppK/NBBRQNRp/nbbrqnrP/PPPPPPPk/8/8 w - - 0 61
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>How long do computers need to reach for example depth 9?
>>>>>>>>Fritz 6 reached depth 5 after 9 hours!! (on Pentium III, 500 MHz, 32 MB Hash) He
>>>>>>>>showed 61. Dxe4 Txe4 62. dxe4 Lxc5 3. Txg4 hxg4 as best moves (+1.56 for White).
>>>>>>>>What is the best move?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Christoph



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