Author: Ed Schröder
Date: 00:15:50 08/15/00
Go up one level in this thread
On August 14, 2000 at 19:11:45, Olaf Jenkner wrote: >On August 14, 2000 at 08:43:08, Enrique Irazoqui wrote: > >>This one is a MES position: >> >>[D]3B4/1r2p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P1K2P/PPB5/8 w - - 0 1 >> >>After 6.f5, all programs I tried evaluate it from +11 to +17. >> >>Enrique >> >>[Event "?"] >>[Site "?"] >>[Date "????.??.??"] >>[Round "?"] >>[White "MES.941"] >>[Black "?"] >>[Result "*"] >>[SetUp "1"] >>[FEN "3B4/1r2p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P1K2P/PPB5/8 w - - 0 1"] >>[PlyCount "11"] >> >>1. Ba4+ Kxa4 2. b3+ Kb5 3. c4+ Kc6 4. d5+ Kd7 5. e6+ Kxd8 6. f5 * > >The computer does not have to see the draw to solve this study. >The solution can be found, when all other moves give a worse >evaluation. >To find the value of the drawn position I analysed the position >after 1.Bxa4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 : There is another side effect you seem to forget. Black might for instance Rc6 and I am pretty sure comps will capture the rook and white will lose after all. Ed > 8 0.69 -13.51 1. Ke3 Kc7 2. fxg5 fxg5 3. Ke4 Ra8 4. Kf5 Rg8 5. Ke4 > 8-> 0.70 -13.51 1. Ke3 Kc7 2. fxg5 fxg5 3. Ke4 Ra8 4. Kf5 Rg8 5. Ke4 > 9 1.84 -13.62 1. Ke3 Kc7 2. Ke4 Ra8 3. Kf5 Rg8 4. Ke4 Bb6 5. fxg5 <HT> > 9-> 2.01 -13.62 1. Ke3 Kc7 2. Ke4 Ra8 3. Kf5 Rg8 4. Ke4 Bb6 5. fxg5 <HT> >10 4.58 -13.58 1. Ke3 Kc7 2. Ke4 Ra8 3. Kf5 Rg8 4. Ke4 Bb6 5. fxg5 fxg5 6. >Kf5 >10-> 4.61 -13.58 1. Ke3 Kc7 2. Ke4 Ra8 3. Kf5 Rg8 4. Ke4 Bb6 5. fxg5 fxg5 6. >Kf5 >11 11.03 -13.62 1. Ke3 Kc7 2. Ke4 Ra8 3. Kf5 Rg8 4. Ke4 Bb6 5. fxg5 fxg5 > 6. Kf5 Rg7 >11-> 11.46 -13.62 1. Ke3 Kc7 2. Ke4 Ra8 3. Kf5 Rg8 4. Ke4 Bb6 5. fxg5 fxg5 > 6. Kf5 Rg7 >12 26.06 -13.69 1. Ke3 Kc7 2. Ke4 Ra8 3. Kf5 Rg8 4. Ke4 Rbb8 5. Ke3 Rbf8 > 6. f5 <HT> >12-> 26.32 -13.69 1. Ke3 Kc7 2. Ke4 Ra8 3. Kf5 Rg8 4. Ke4 Rbb8 5. Ke3 Rbf8 > 6. f5 <HT> >13 1:10 -14.01 1. Ke3 gxf4+ 2. Kxf4 Ra8 3. Ke4 Kc7 4. Kf3 Rg8 5. Kf2 Rbb8 > 6. Ke1 f5 7. gxf5 Rbf8 8. Kd2 Rxf5 >13 1:17 -13.72 1. f5 Kc7 2. Ke3 Ra8 3. Ke4 Rg8 4. Kf3 Bb6 5. Ke4 Rf8 > 6. Kf3 Rd8 7. Ke4 >13-> 1:17 -13.72 1. f5 Kc7 2. Ke3 Ra8 3. Ke4 Rg8 4. Kf3 Bb6 5. Ke4 Rf8 > 6. Kf3 Rd8 7. Ke4 >14 1:23 -13.72 1. f5 Kc7 2. Ke3 Ra8 3. Ke4 Rg8 4. Kf3 Bb6 5. Ke4 Rf8 > 6. Kf3 Rd8 7. Ke4 Re8 >14-> 1:23 -13.72 1. f5 Kc7 2. Ke3 Ra8 3. Ke4 Rg8 4. Kf3 Bb6 5. Ke4 Rf8 > 6. Kf3 Rd8 7. Ke4 Re8 >15 1:36 -13.73 1. f5 Kc7 2. Ke3 Ra8 3. Ke4 Bb6 4. Kf3 Rbb8 5. Ke4 Rg8 > 6. Ke3 Rgf8 7. Ke4 Rad8 8. Ke3 >15-> 1:38 -13.73 1. f5 Kc7 2. Ke3 Ra8 3. Ke4 Bb6 4. Kf3 Rbb8 5. Ke4 Rg8 > 6. Ke3 Rgf8 7. Ke4 Rad8 8. Ke3 >16 2:00 -13.75 1. f5 Kc7 2. Ke3 Ra8 3. Ke4 Bb6 4. Kf3 Rbb8 5. Ke4 Rg8 > 6. Ke3 Rgf8 7. Ke4 Rad8 8. Ke3 Rfe8 >16-> 2:06 -13.75 1. f5 Kc7 2. Ke3 Ra8 3. Ke4 Bb6 4. Kf3 Rbb8 5. Ke4 Rg8 > 6. Ke3 Rgf8 7. Ke4 Rad8 8. Ke3 Rfe8 > >It takes 13 plies to get a worse evaluation then -13.7 (which means draw). > >Now when the value of the draw is known, I analysed the position >after 1.Bxa4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 : > > 9 0.70 -9.26 1. exf6 exf6 2. Bxf6 gxf4 3. Bg5 Ra8 4. Bxf4 Rf8 5. Ke3 Bb6 > 9-> 0.77 -9.26 1. exf6 exf6 2. Bxf6 gxf4 3. Bg5 Ra8 4. Bxf4 Rf8 5. Ke3 Bb6 >10 1.64 -9.07 1. exf6 exf6 2. Bxf6 gxf4 3. Bxh4 Ra8 4. Bf2 Rg8 5. Ke2 Rg5 >6. Kf3 >10-> 1.77 -9.07 1. exf6 exf6 2. Bxf6 gxf4 3. Bxh4 Ra8 4. Bf2 Rg8 5. Ke2 Rg5 >6. Kf3 >11 4.65 -9.28 1. exf6 exf6 2. Bxf6 gxf4 3. Bg5 Ra8 4. Bxf4 Rf8 5. Ke3 >Re8+ > 6. Kd3 Bb6 7. Bg5 >11-> 4.85 -9.28 1. exf6 exf6 2. Bxf6 gxf4 3. Bg5 Ra8 4. Bxf4 Rf8 5. Ke3 >Re8+ > 6. Kd3 Bb6 7. Bg5 >12 13.75 -9.23 1. exf6 exf6 2. Bxf6 gxf4 3. Bxh4 Ra8 4. Bg5 f3 5. Ke3 Rf8 > 6. Kf2 Bd8 7. Bxd8 Kxd8 >12-> 14.32 -9.23 1. exf6 exf6 2. Bxf6 gxf4 3. Bxh4 Ra8 4. Bg5 f3 5. Ke3 Rf8 > 6. Kf2 Bd8 7. Bxd8 Kxd8 >13 22.93 -- 1. exf6 >13 39.29 -10.11 1. exf6 Ke8 2. Bxe7 gxf4 3. Kd3 Rxe7 4. fxe7 Ra7 5. Ke2 >Rxe7+ > 6. Kf2 Re3 7. g5 Rxb3 8. Kg2 >13-> 41.82 -10.11 1. exf6 Ke8 2. Bxe7 gxf4 3. Kd3 Rxe7 4. fxe7 Ra7 5. Ke2 >Rxe7+ > 6. Kf2 Re3 7. g5 Rxb3 8. Kg2 >14 43.65 -- 1. exf6 >14 1:45 -10.88 1. exf6 Ke8 2. Bxe7 gxf4 3. g5 Rxe7 4. fxe7 Ra7 5. Ke2 >Rxe7+ > 6. Kf2 Re3 7. g6 Rxh3 8. Ke1 Rxb3 >14-> 2:03 -10.88 1. exf6 Ke8 2. Bxe7 gxf4 3. g5 Rxe7 4. fxe7 Ra7 5. Ke2 >Rxe7+ > 6. Kf2 Re3 7. g6 Rxh3 8. Ke1 Rxb3 >15 2:05 -- 1. exf6 >15 6:06 -11.37 1. exf6 Ke8 2. f7+ Kxf7 3. Bxa5 gxf4 4. Bd8 Kf6 5. Ke2 Ra8 > 6. Kf3 Kg5 7. Bxe7+ Rxe7 8. Kf2 Re3 9. Kg2 >15-> 7:18 -11.37 1. exf6 Ke8 2. f7+ Kxf7 3. Bxa5 gxf4 4. Bd8 Kf6 5. Ke2 Ra8 > 6. Kf3 Kg5 7. Bxe7+ Rxe7 8. Kf2 Re3 9. Kg2 >16 19:14 -11.61 1. exf6 Ke8 2. f7+ Kxf7 3. Bxa5 gxf4 4. Bd8 Kf6 5. Ke2 Rd7 > 6. Kf3 Kg5 7. Bc7 Rxc7 8. Ke4 Rb6 9. Kf3 >16-> 20:11 -11.61 1. exf6 Ke8 2. f7+ Kxf7 3. Bxa5 gxf4 4. Bd8 Kf6 5. Ke2 Rd7 > 6. Kf3 Kg5 7. Bc7 Rxc7 8. Ke4 Rb6 9. Kf3 >17 20:28 -- 1. exf6 >17 89:06 -12.31 1. exf6 Ke8 2. f7+ Kxf7 3. Bxa5 Rxa5 4. f5 Kf6 5. Ke2 Ke5 > 6. Ke1 Ra8 7. Kf1 Kd4 8. Ke2 <HT> >17-> 96:58 -12.31 1. exf6 Ke8 2. f7+ Kxf7 3. Bxa5 Rxa5 4. f5 Kf6 5. Ke2 Ke5 > 6. Ke1 Ra8 7. Kf1 Kd4 8. Ke2 <HT> >18 98:08 -- 1. exf6 >18 277:16 -14.69 1. exf6 Ke8 2. Bxe7 gxf4 3. Ke2 Rxe7+ 4. fxe7 Ra7 5. Kf3 >Rxe7 > 6. g5 Kf8 7. Kxf4 Re2 8. Kg4 Rxa2 9. Kxh4 Rb2 10. g6 Rxb3 >18 692:55 ++ 1. Bxa5!! >18 866:47 -12.82 1. Bxa5 dxe5 2. f5 Rxa5 3. Kd3 Kd6 4. Ke4 Rd7 5. Kd3 Raa7 > 6. Ke2 Rac7 7. Ke3 Rb7 8. Kd3 Rb6 9. Ke3 Rd8 >18-> 872:25 -12.82 1. Bxa5 dxe5 2. f5 Rxa5 3. Kd3 Kd6 4. Ke4 Rd7 5. Kd3 Raa7 > 6. Ke2 Rac7 7. Ke3 Rb7 8. Kd3 Rb6 9. Ke3 Rd8 > >Crafty needs 18 plies to realize, that 1.exf5 is worse then 13.7 . >Of course 1.Bxa5 loses also, but it is beyond the horizon. >It's disappointing, that after 14 hours Crafty does not see the loss after Bxa5. > >To find the reason I analysed the position >after 1.Bxa4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 and now 5.Bxa5? dxe5 6.f5 Rxa5 >: > > 9 0.83 -12.68 1. Ke3 Rb8 2. Kf2 Rc8 3. Kf3 Rca8 <HT> > 9-> 0.84 -12.68 1. Ke3 Rb8 2. Kf2 Rc8 3. Kf3 Rca8 <HT> >10 2.30 -12.78 1. Ke3 Rb8 2. Kf2 Kd6 3. Kf3 Ra6 4. Ke3 Raa8 5. Kf3 Rd8 >10-> 2.31 -12.78 1. Ke3 Rb8 2. Kf2 Kd6 3. Kf3 Ra6 4. Ke3 Raa8 5. Kf3 Rd8 >11 5.18 -12.78 1. Ke3 Rb8 2. Kf2 Kd6 3. Kf3 Raa8 4. Ke3 Rd8 5. Ke4 Rac8 6. >Ke3 >11-> 5.18 -12.78 1. Ke3 Rb8 2. Kf2 Kd6 3. Kf3 Raa8 4. Ke3 Rd8 5. Ke4 Rac8 6. >Ke3 >12 11.60 -12.78 1. Ke3 Rb8 2. Kf2 Kd6 3. Kf3 Raa8 4. Ke3 Re8 5. Kf3 Red8 > 6. Ke3 Rac8 >12-> 11.61 -12.78 1. Ke3 Rb8 2. Kf2 Kd6 3. Kf3 Raa8 4. Ke3 Re8 5. Kf3 Red8 > 6. Ke3 Rac8 >13 31.55 -12.80 1. Ke3 Kd6 2. Kf2 Ra8 3. Kf3 Rd7 4. Ke4 Rf8 5. Kf3 Rf7 > 6. Ke3 Rf8 <HT> >13-> 33.73 -12.80 1. Ke3 Kd6 2. Kf2 Ra8 3. Kf3 Rd7 4. Ke4 Rf8 5. Kf3 Rf7 > 6. Ke3 Rf8 <HT> >14 1:30 -12.80 1. Ke3 Kd6 2. Ke4 Ra8 3. Ke3 Rd7 4. Ke4 Rf8 5. Kf3 Rfd8 ><HT> >14-> 1:30 -12.80 1. Ke3 Kd6 2. Ke4 Ra8 3. Ke3 Rd7 4. Ke4 Rf8 5. Kf3 Rfd8 ><HT> >15 3:49 -12.96 1. Ke3 Ra6 2. Kf3 e6 3. fxe6+ Rxe6 4. dxe6+ Kxe6 5. Kf2 Rd7 > 6. Ke2 Rd4 7. Ke1 Rd3 8. Ke2 Rxh3 9. Kd2 Rxb3 >15-> 3:51 -12.96 1. Ke3 Ra6 2. Kf3 e6 3. fxe6+ Rxe6 4. dxe6+ Kxe6 5. Kf2 Rd7 > 6. Ke2 Rd4 7. Ke1 Rd3 8. Ke2 Rxh3 9. Kd2 Rxb3 >16 3:56 -- 1. Ke3 >16 13:26 -15.87 1. Ke3 Ra6 2. Kf3 e4+ 3. Kxe4 e6 4. fxe6+ Rxe6+ 5. dxe6+ >Kxe6 > 6. Kd3 Ke5 7. Kd2 Ke4 8. Kc2 Rd7 9. Kc1 <HT> >16-> 14:13 -15.87 1. Ke3 Ra6 2. Kf3 e4+ 3. Kxe4 e6 4. fxe6+ Rxe6+ 5. dxe6+ >Kxe6 > 6. Kd3 Ke5 7. Kd2 Ke4 8. Kc2 Rd7 9. Kc1 <HT> >17 14:52 -- 1. Ke3 > >It takes 16 (or 20) plies to get the value below 13.7 . > >Conclusion: The study is too hard for computers (I used a PII 333 MHz Hash >48M/32M). > Perhaps it is possible to solve the position after 4 moves. > >Question: Does anybody have better results with other programs? > Maybe better knowledge about passed pawns can save some plies.
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