Author: Peter Skinner
Date: 14:53:34 08/15/00
Go up one level in this thread
On August 15, 2000 at 17:45:31, Ed Schröder wrote: >On August 15, 2000 at 15:06:58, Peter Skinner wrote: > >>On August 15, 2000 at 11:17:02, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On August 15, 2000 at 05:42:26, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On August 15, 2000 at 05:28:47, Marcus Kaestner wrote: >>>> >>>>>On August 15, 2000 at 01:15:31, Jouni Uski wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Nice, that all TOP programs are there. With 4/15 programs >>>>>>(Fritz,Junior,Nimzo,SOS) probability for Chessbase to win is quite high! >>>>>>Can anybody count it? And specially when all these are very strong... >>>>>> >>>>>>Jouni >>>>> >>>>>no way. you will see it. >>>>> >>>>>marcus >>>> >>>>I do not know the future. >>>>Chessbase can win and can lose. >>>> >>>>I am sure shredder,Rebel and tiger are better but the same is also for some >>>>chessbase engines. >>>> >>>>You also cannot be sure that the best program is going to win. >>>>In WMCCC of 1997 Junior won convincingly and Junior was not the best program. >>>> >>>>How do you know before the games that chessbase is not going to win? >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>>I don't understand why are so many excited about tiger at CCC? >>> >>>I only see it play positional incredible bad, missing all kind of >>>knowledge. It's really anti-computer style. Nowadays programs have a lot >>>less problems with that. >>> >>>I see crafty even at a dual getting only half speed at which it >>>will run at WMCC blowing away tiger in a positional way at the >>>icc regurarly. >>> >>>Some games Tiger sees lands and sails off to hit the land real soon >>>thereby playing well, others it doesn't see the land in the >>>see and sails to unknown destiny and loses pathetic. >>> >>>To win a championship like this the first priority is a program that >>>doesn't lose at all. >>> >>>I'm not impressed by Shredder's insight in the middlegame. >>>Especially putting pieces into pins and other dangerous anti-positional >>>things is something Shredder happily does, only its deep search and the >>>fact that at these 13+ ply depths there are not many tricks left, >>>allow usually such moves in a tactical way. >>>Yet the bottom line is: shredder hardly LOSES a game. >>>Therefore it always has a good chance to win a championship. >>>Same is valid for junior. It just doesn't blow things quickly. It's missing >>>some fundamental knowledge, but no matter whether it makes mistakes, >>>it doesn't blow it soon. It is not bad in endgame either, one of the >>>big reasons it won 1997 title. Shredder is real good in endgame. >>> >>>Tiger is in a few endgames not bad, but in the average endgame it loses >>>a lot in very weird ways at the icc servers. That's basically blitz of >>>course, so no big deal usual, but the slower games show the same problems >>>also. >>> >>>Crafty might get killed real soon in its book against Kure book who had >>>the chance to study automatically generated books real well as he's >>>a lot on the internet. Against certain other programs crafty will also >>>lose bigtime because of book. >>> >>>So i don't see crafty win either, but it will play in a reliable way >>>of course. Very good tested. >>> >>>If you have a big weak point in your engine, you can shake it winning >>>a heavy champ like this. >>> >>>Finally considering tiger and rebel will have nearly the same >>>book, i definitely would be on the last if my choice was limited >>>to those 2, at least rebel knows something about sacraficing pawns... >>> >>>Vincent >> >>I have never seen Vincent impressed with anyhting but his own engine, so I take >>this with a grain of salt. One thing I know for sure, Diep won't win. I will bet >>millions on that fact. Maybe Vincent is impressed with the "knowledge" that he >>has incorporated into Diep, but every other program trashes in on ICS, so.... >> >>I am impressed with the advancements other programs have made. And I find it >>just as impressive that Shredder doesn't lose many games. >> >>Just a side note.. how many games did Diep lose at last years WCCC? >> >>3 of 7, and finished with 3.0/7.0... impressive... >> >>How did Shredder finish? Oh that is right 1st... he must be doing something >>wrong. > >Maybe the following is true and in particular for Vincent: finding >(some) weak spots in particular engines sometimes makes you forget >about the (more) strong points. > >Ed I totolly agree, but how do you forget about the strong points when it has cleaned your clock so many times? Obviously the weak points, are not that weak. I always forget that Fritz always kicks the hell out of me everytime, just before I play.. NOT!! I know that I don't have a chance in hell in beating it, and I _never_ forget it. I simply don't focus on the weak points thinking it is going to be a walk in the park. The strong features of a program make it what it is. Not the weak one. Maybe based on Vincent's focus on Shredder, we should call it something to the effect.. Shredded 5.0...
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