Author: Albert Silver
Date: 15:42:24 08/27/00
Go up one level in this thread
On August 27, 2000 at 17:58:14, Uri Blass wrote:
>On August 27, 2000 at 17:25:55, Marcus Kaestner wrote:
>
>>>>Which program had the best opening book? Shredder 5.0
>>
>>you must be kidding!
>>shredder´s book was so very bad that shredder was named there "houdini-chess"
>>because first he has had to untie himself.
>>
>>sorry, but it was one of the worst one´s.
>
>A good book is not a book that leads you to better positions but a book that
>lead you to better result.
>
>I read that the 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 line shredder has more than 90% result and
>if it is the case this line was a very good line.
>
>I read that the line against Sos was also good.
>
>I do not say that book of shredder was the best but I disagree that it was one
>of the worst
I agree. Shredder's book may need some more tuning, but that doesn't mean it was
the worst. I am sure Sandro will get there. Remember he has only been at this
since February, and his previous work was with a COMPLETELY different program so
he has pretty much had to start from scratch. Testing this and then filtering
the lines must require a huge amount of work. I remember Mchess's book as being
very good so I have no doubt Shredder's will be of similiar quality.
>
>
>>alex´book was BY FAR the best and there is NO doubt about that.
>>having killer line´s but also with hardly a whole.
>>
>>>>Which program had the worst opening book?
>>
>>here you can say shredder.
>>
>>>>Which program had the best middlegame? Junior
>>
>>i prefer fritz
>>
>I was impressed by the way that Junior played the middle game against
>Shredder,Rebel and tiger.
>
>Fritz could get nothing in the middle game against Junior so I prefer
>Junior(london) in the middle game.
>
>>>>Which program had the worst middlegame?
>>>>Which program was the best in the endgame? Shredder 5.0
>>
>>yes, but even close rebel and tiger.
>>
>>>>Which program was the worst in the endgame?
>>>>Which program is best in closed positions? Rebel
>>
>>ok
>>
>>>>Which program is best in noticing attacks and attacking? Shredder 5.0
>>
>>i would prefer junior.
>>
>>>>Which program is best in defense? Shredder 5.0
>>
>>no doubt.
>>
>>>>Which program is best in playing human players? Shredder 5.0
>>
>>no, no, no. much better is rebel.
Oh? How was this determined? I agree Rebel is great at playing against human
opponents, but 'much better'? I recall that Shredder's results in the Israeli
leagues were not too bad.
>>
>>>>Finally, which program is best overall? Shedder 5.0
>>
>>not so very clear. rebel has the best evaluation, tiger the best search and
>>fritz the best combination of these two points. bt for me it is clear, that
>>these four programs are dominating at the moment.
>
>It is not clear.
Yes, I don't think it's clear either, plus I don't see how Junior was excluded
from the list of top dominating programs of the moment, or even Chessmaster for
that matter.
>
>Junior was the most interesting program in the event.
>I think that this program did the biggest change relative to previous versions.
>
>Sometimes the change was good(see the games against Rebel and tiger)
>Sometimes the change caused trouble when Junior played h5 against shredder or
>let nimzo to win it by sacrificing the exchange.
>
>I know that Rebel is a preprocessor so I doubt if it has the best evaluation.
>I do not like preprocessors for analysis.
>I may analyze a position when the computer say that white have an advantage when
>after castling the computer suddenly say that black has an advantage when it
>cannot see deeper.
>
>I know that not all the programs behave like this.
>
>Amir admitted that there are cases when Junior is a preprocessor but Amir hope
>to get rid of it.
>I also read that Fritz also behave better about this(I read that Fritz does
>hardly evaluations in the root).
>
>
>I know also from my experience that chessmaster is not a preprocessor.
>>
>>with a reasonable book i predict tiger to overrun shredder.
>
>You forget the fact that shredder can also improve the book.
>
><snipped>
>>maybe shredder is now 10 points above tiger and shredder and fritz.
Sorry, but for me saying a program is 10 points better is meaningless in terms
of strength.
Albert Silver
>
>I understand that you mean above tiger,Rebel and Fritz.
>
>The standard error is clearly bigger than 10 elo(even if you have some hundreds
>of tournament time control games) so if you say maybe 10 elo better it can be 40
>elo better and can be 20 elo worse.
>
>Uri
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