Author: Albert Silver
Date: 10:35:15 08/28/00
Go up one level in this thread
On August 27, 2000 at 22:05:14, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>On August 27, 2000 at 12:08:19, Ed Schröder wrote:
>
>>On August 27, 2000 at 10:05:17, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On August 27, 2000 at 00:28:08, Ed Schröder wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 26, 2000 at 23:43:34, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On August 26, 2000 at 23:06:10, Ed Schröder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On August 26, 2000 at 21:08:37, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On August 26, 2000 at 11:05:24, walter irvin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On August 26, 2000 at 09:21:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On August 26, 2000 at 09:16:50, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I tried this position from the game century3-crafty17.11
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>[D]rnbqk2r/pp1p1ppp/4pn2/4P3/1b1N4/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R b KQkq - 0 1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Crafty17.13 played 6...Qc7
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I gave my Crafty17.11 as engine for Hiarcs with 128 Mbyes hash time control of 4
>>>>>>>>>>hours/60 moves
>>>>>>>>>>(I guess that this time control is similiar to 2 hours/60 moves on the alpha)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>My Crafty17.11 changed its mind in the last second at depth 12 from 6..Qc7(0.15
>>>>>>>>>>pawn advantage) to the better move 6...Nd5(0.16 pawns advantage).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I am interested to know crafty17.13's opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>Can crafty17.13 avoid 6...Qc7 at depth 12?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>It avoids it by depth=10. The problem was that the mode we were using forced it
>>>>>>>>>to play Qc7 as it was a book move. Somehow we followed a very rarely played
>>>>>>>>>line, but until I get the log files from Graham I can't tell exactly why. I
>>>>>>>>>did notice a pretty significant CAP score that might have pulled it down that
>>>>>>>>>line erroneously...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>what was the speed relitive x86 for the alpha you used .would it have been
>>>>>>>>faster if you could have gotten similar hardware that deep junior had at
>>>>>>>>dortmund ??what nps was you seeing on the alpha .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>We were doing about 400K nps. My quad xeon does about 1M, for reference.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Speed wasn't the issue here however, it was simply following a bad book line
>>>>>>>until it was too late...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But 6..Qc7? came not from the book but from the Crafty engine. In this
>>>>>>game the Crafty book did not work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ed
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No... it came from the book. We were using "book random 0" which says to
>>>>>search (for a short time, normally) all the book moves, and play the one with
>>>>>the best score. Qc7 was in the book, but the score fails low pretty quickly.
>>>>>Then, after resolving the fail low, it decides "hey, this is bad, I am not
>>>>>going to play a book move at all." It then does a normal search, but it had
>>>>>used too much time and the search wasn't very deep....
>>>>>
>>>>>The book was actually working, but "book random 0" changes the way it looks,
>>>>>and if you don't know, you could assume it is doing a normal search, unless
>>>>>you see the line "searching only the following moves: {a b c d etc}
>>>>>
>>>>>I think Qc7 was the third most popular move in that very narrow (and bad) book
>>>>>line...
>>>>
>>>>This is what I remember from our game: 1.e4 by Rebel and Crafty immediately
>>>>replied with 1..c5 from the book. Then 2.Nf3 and then Crafty started to
>>>>think shortly (5-10 seconds) and the second Crafty move was played. This
>>>>behaviour (5-10 secons for the move) continued till move 5 or 6 and then
>>>>Crafty started to use the normal 2-4 minutes for its moves. 6..Qc7 came
>>>>at the last moment after a 2-4 minutes search. After 6..Qc7 Rebel was also
>>>>out of book.
>>>>
>>>>I don't know that much about Crafty but everybody was saying Crafty was
>>>>out of book after move 1. Also Graham said the above Crafty behavior was
>>>>the same in game 1 (implied Crafty playing without book in game-1).
>>>>
>>>>Hope this gives you sufficient information to make up your mind what
>>>>really went wrong with the book.
>>>>
>>>>Ed
>>>
>>>
>>>That sounds like what I would expect here... If the score for Qc7 dropped
>>>enough, it will refuse to play it as a book move and do a search. I had not
>>>factored in the problem with a fail low at the end of the book search, which
>>>could use over 1/2 of the total time allocated to this move. But I will cover
>>>this hole quickly, of course. :)
>>>
>>>Qc7 was played several thousand times, however, which makes it surprising it
>>>isn't in your book.
>>
>>Qc7 is a losing move just trash it from your book. Rebel had to find 7.exf6
>>and sacrifice the rook on a1. I was happy Rebel did. After that the game was
>>over. I think Jeroen will add 6..Qc7? 7.exf6 to the book so Rebel can find
>>7.exf6 also on short time controls. After 7.exf6 things are easy to find.
>>
>>Ed
>
>
>The sad thing is that Crafty has played this vs GM players 10 times now. And
>it _won_ all ten games with black. That is why book learning had not already
>culled this silly variation. :)
What were the time controls of these games? Also, does it base its learning on
the game result or the eval of the position after leaving its book? The latter I
presume, but you mentioned it won 10 games hence my doubt.
Albert Silver
>
>Learning doesn't cure all book woes unless the opponents punish it so that
>it learns it was punished. :)
>
>Creating a good book (automatically) is a challenge. If you only use GM
>games, the book is too narrow. If you use a bigger game collection, you get
>garbage moves...
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