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Subject: Re: Fritz Has A New Weapon

Author: Ricardo Gibert

Date: 02:12:13 08/30/00

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On August 30, 2000 at 04:47:49, Uri Blass wrote:

>On August 30, 2000 at 04:34:08, Ricardo Gibert wrote:
>
>>On August 30, 2000 at 02:42:49, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On August 30, 2000 at 00:31:24, Ricardo Gibert wrote:
>>>
>>>>On August 29, 2000 at 23:19:59, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On August 29, 2000 at 19:18:17, Alexander Kure wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On August 29, 2000 at 13:58:52, Graham Laight wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Firstly, apologies to everyone for dashing off after the last game in the WMCCC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It enabled me to get an extra day's holiday with my girlfriend, though, which
>>>>>>>was well worthwhile!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well deserved, Graham!
>>>>>>Thanks again for your work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This game clearly showed that Fritz plays in a different league than Crafty! In
>>>>>>fact I think this was one of the best games of the WMCCC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Greetings
>>>>>>Alex
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My take on this game is a bit different.  I do _not_ want my program to make
>>>>>such a sacrifice and then see the eval steadily go _down_ over the next few
>>>>>moves.  It means one of two things for it to win such a game:
>>>>>
>>>>>1.  The eval is bogus.  It is saying "this is bad" when in reality "this is
>>>>>good".  I don't want that sort of evaluation.
>>>>
>>>>But this is unavoidable. Otherwise computer programs would only need to do a 1
>>>>ply search.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>2.  The program was lucky.  A little luck doesn't hurt.  But it doesn't win
>>>>>tournaments very often.
>>>>
>>>>Again, unavoidable. Have crafty play against itself and you will still have
>>>>decisive games. The games are won due to luck, since they have the same eval.
>>>>The question is, "did Fritz make a good gamble?"
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Either the eval was wrong, or it was lucky.  Neither one leave me feeling like
>>>>>"fritz is in a different league than Crafty..."
>>>>
>>>>Of course, but that is pretty much how _all_ games are decided isn't it?
>>>
>>>No
>>>
>>>There are games when one side get advantage and slowly increase the advantage
>>>without having a worse position.
>>
>>The only truly correct evals are a: win, draw or loss. The other stuff in
>>between are _practical_ assessments that do not correspond to the true
>>evaluation of the position, but they are precisely what all programs rely on in
>>all games. Yes?
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I suspect white has better moves that might have justified the pessimistic eval
>>>>>Fritz had...  The right program might have made that sacrifice look as ugly as
>>>>>this game made it look brilliant...
>>>>
>>>>Better moves may exist, but you have to _find_ them.
>>>
>>>Crafty could find Nxe6.
>>
>>If Nxe6 is an improvement for crafty, it had to find it during the game and not
>>after. Why it didn't is irrelevant to the result. The result still stands.
>
>The result stands but the impression that fritz is a different league than
>crafty does not stand.
>
>Uri

That statement I do not have to defend, since I did not make it. It isn't
necessary for the point I was making.

As for the statement itself, my opinion is that it is obviously hyperbole born
of enthusiasm and therefore there really is no need to make a big issue out of
it.



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