Author: Ed Schröder
Date: 07:27:21 09/06/00
Go up one level in this thread
On September 06, 2000 at 05:42:53, Peter McKenzie wrote: >On September 06, 2000 at 04:12:01, Ed Schröder wrote: > >>On September 06, 2000 at 02:20:28, Peter McKenzie wrote: >> >>>On September 06, 2000 at 01:52:00, Ed Schröder wrote: >>> >>>>On September 05, 2000 at 18:22:25, Jason Williamson wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 05, 2000 at 18:17:26, Ed Schröder wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 05, 2000 at 17:51:28, Peter McKenzie wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>How about it Ed & Christophe? >>>>>> >>>>>>Hi Peter, >>>>>> >>>>>>I haven't changed my mind. There is still no control. Until then... >>>>>> >>>>>>Ed >>>>> >>>>>What do you mean no control? >>>> >>>>That nobody knows the games are 100% real. To gain creditability these >>>>games should be played in public (on the chess club or so) so everybody >>>>can see what you are doing. >>>> >>>>I understand it's an obstacle but it is my reason not to participate in >>>>this tournament. The operator can do what he want as there is no control. >>>>He can override moves, change the time control, force a move he likes and >>>>and and. >>>> >>>>Another way (although it solves not eveything) is that somebody else (the >>>>TD) is send the program before the games and carefully checks the moves. >>>> >>>>I think playing serious tournaments on Internet has a great future. More >>>>it has the power to become a serious counterpart for the yearly world >>>>championship computer chess if these kind of things are arranged well. >>>> >>>>Ed >>> >>>With Internet events, a certain amount of trust is required. I just don't see >>>any way of getting around that in the near future. >>> >>>But consider this: does it really matter if someone tries to cheat?? >>> >>>Can an operator really improve a program's performance? Don't forget that the >>>time control is quite fast (30 10, or 45 10). I think that the programs are so >>>strong now that even if someone cheated by manually choosing different moves, it >>>would be very tough to do any better than letting the computer play by itself. >>> >>>For every move a human can improve on, there are probably 2 other moves where >>>they just stuff up. It might be easy to poke holes in computer play AFTER the >>>game (hindsight is a wonderful thing), but not nearly so easy to do this >>>confidently DURING the game. >>> >>>I guess someone could use another program to cheat with, but really lets not get >>>too paranoid here. Most of the participants are quite well known in these >>>circles, and seem to be pretty trustworthy. >> >>There are many aspects, I will limit myself to one. >> >>Speaking only for myself: I don't want to become into the temptation to >>cheat. >> >>[Q] Do I trust myself? >>[A] Yes. >> >>[Q] Do I COMPLETELY trust myself? >>[A] No. >> >>Here is a story from a long time ago, actually it was my first tournament >>the WCCC 1986 in Cologne. Playing in the last round Rebel had a winning >>position and if Rebel would win that game then Rebel was the new world >>champion all classes. >> >>On a given moment it was considering 2 moves, the good move and a losing >>move. When I saw Rebel was changing its mind to the bad move somebody told >>me I should press the "force move" button so the good move would have been >>played. I wasn't willing. Then the person in question moved his hand to the >>"force move" button and "in a second" I had to decide what to do. I did the >>right thing and pushed his hand away. Rebel played the bad move and Rebel >>lost the game. After the game I was called stupid throwing away the title. >> >>In that remarkable "second" the option "why not" certainly crossed my mind >>and I think that nobody is excluded from such temptations when so much is >>at stake. >> >>[Q] What will I do next time? >>[A] Probably the same >> >>So I end as I started: I don't want to become into the temptation to >>cheat, not anymore. > >Do you honestly believe that you cheating would make Rebel any stronger? > >I'd say that if most program authors (myself included) started overriding their >program's choice of moves then their program would just play WEAKER! > >It might be an interesting experiment though... Hi Peter, I am not against these tournaments. I was asked why Rebel did not participate and now you know the why. Ed >>To make Internet tournaments trustworthy you need rules. >> >>Ed
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