Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 07:59:27 09/06/00
Go up one level in this thread
On September 06, 2000 at 10:37:31, Ed Schröder wrote: >On September 06, 2000 at 10:24:18, Dave Gomboc wrote: > >>On September 06, 2000 at 04:12:01, Ed Schröder wrote: >> >>>On September 06, 2000 at 02:20:28, Peter McKenzie wrote: >>> >>>>On September 06, 2000 at 01:52:00, Ed Schröder wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 05, 2000 at 18:22:25, Jason Williamson wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 05, 2000 at 18:17:26, Ed Schröder wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On September 05, 2000 at 17:51:28, Peter McKenzie wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>How about it Ed & Christophe? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Hi Peter, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I haven't changed my mind. There is still no control. Until then... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ed >>>>>> >>>>>>What do you mean no control? >>>>> >>>>>That nobody knows the games are 100% real. To gain creditability these >>>>>games should be played in public (on the chess club or so) so everybody >>>>>can see what you are doing. >>>>> >>>>>I understand it's an obstacle but it is my reason not to participate in >>>>>this tournament. The operator can do what he want as there is no control. >>>>>He can override moves, change the time control, force a move he likes and >>>>>and and. >>>>> >>>>>Another way (although it solves not eveything) is that somebody else (the >>>>>TD) is send the program before the games and carefully checks the moves. >>>>> >>>>>I think playing serious tournaments on Internet has a great future. More >>>>>it has the power to become a serious counterpart for the yearly world >>>>>championship computer chess if these kind of things are arranged well. >>>>> >>>>>Ed >>>> >>>>With Internet events, a certain amount of trust is required. I just don't see >>>>any way of getting around that in the near future. >>>> >>>>But consider this: does it really matter if someone tries to cheat?? >>>> >>>>Can an operator really improve a program's performance? Don't forget that the >>>>time control is quite fast (30 10, or 45 10). I think that the programs are so >>>>strong now that even if someone cheated by manually choosing different moves, it >>>>would be very tough to do any better than letting the computer play by itself. >>>> >>>>For every move a human can improve on, there are probably 2 other moves where >>>>they just stuff up. It might be easy to poke holes in computer play AFTER the >>>>game (hindsight is a wonderful thing), but not nearly so easy to do this >>>>confidently DURING the game. >>>> >>>>I guess someone could use another program to cheat with, but really lets not get >>>>too paranoid here. Most of the participants are quite well known in these >>>>circles, and seem to be pretty trustworthy. >>> >>>There are many aspects, I will limit myself to one. >>> >>>Speaking only for myself: I don't want to become into the temptation to >>>cheat. >>> >>>[Q] Do I trust myself? >>>[A] Yes. >>> >>>[Q] Do I COMPLETELY trust myself? >>>[A] No. >>> >>>Here is a story from a long time ago, actually it was my first tournament >>>the WCCC 1986 in Cologne. Playing in the last round Rebel had a winning >>>position and if Rebel would win that game then Rebel was the new world >>>champion all classes. >>> >>>On a given moment it was considering 2 moves, the good move and a losing >>>move. When I saw Rebel was changing its mind to the bad move somebody told >>>me I should press the "force move" button so the good move would have been >>>played. I wasn't willing. Then the person in question moved his hand to the >>>"force move" button and "in a second" I had to decide what to do. I did the >>>right thing and pushed his hand away. Rebel played the bad move and Rebel >>>lost the game. After the game I was called stupid throwing away the title. >>> >>>In that remarkable "second" the option "why not" certainly crossed my mind >>>and I think that nobody is excluded from such temptations when so much is >>>at stake. >>> >>>[Q] What will I do next time? >>>[A] Probably the same >>> >>>So I end as I started: I don't want to become into the temptation to >>>cheat, not anymore. >>> >>>To make Internet tournaments trustworthy you need rules. >>> >>>Ed >> >>While it's good that you were able to resist the suggestion (and it's also good >>that you won in 1992 anyway! :-), not having a "force move" keystroke built into >>the software in the first place would have prevented any moral dilemmas from >>arising. > >In a public event there is at least the obstacle you can get caught. Let's >keep it that way. > >Ed > > Just remember that you have used an operator in the past that has used the "move now" button _many_ times at ACM/WCCC events. So it _can_ happen there. It _can_ happen on ICC. Do I think the probability is higher at one than the other? No. Those that will cheat will cheat. Those that won't, won't. I don't think the 'medium' being used matters. Over the internet, over the phone, in person, via proxy, etc... If someone wants to cheat, it would be practically impossible to prevent it. >>Dave
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.