Author: Ed Schröder
Date: 09:04:41 09/06/00
Go up one level in this thread
On September 06, 2000 at 10:59:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On September 06, 2000 at 10:37:31, Ed Schröder wrote: > >>On September 06, 2000 at 10:24:18, Dave Gomboc wrote: >> >>>On September 06, 2000 at 04:12:01, Ed Schröder wrote: >>> >>>>On September 06, 2000 at 02:20:28, Peter McKenzie wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 06, 2000 at 01:52:00, Ed Schröder wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 05, 2000 at 18:22:25, Jason Williamson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On September 05, 2000 at 18:17:26, Ed Schröder wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On September 05, 2000 at 17:51:28, Peter McKenzie wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>How about it Ed & Christophe? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Hi Peter, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I haven't changed my mind. There is still no control. Until then... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>>What do you mean no control? >>>>>> >>>>>>That nobody knows the games are 100% real. To gain creditability these >>>>>>games should be played in public (on the chess club or so) so everybody >>>>>>can see what you are doing. >>>>>> >>>>>>I understand it's an obstacle but it is my reason not to participate in >>>>>>this tournament. The operator can do what he want as there is no control. >>>>>>He can override moves, change the time control, force a move he likes and >>>>>>and and. >>>>>> >>>>>>Another way (although it solves not eveything) is that somebody else (the >>>>>>TD) is send the program before the games and carefully checks the moves. >>>>>> >>>>>>I think playing serious tournaments on Internet has a great future. More >>>>>>it has the power to become a serious counterpart for the yearly world >>>>>>championship computer chess if these kind of things are arranged well. >>>>>> >>>>>>Ed >>>>> >>>>>With Internet events, a certain amount of trust is required. I just don't see >>>>>any way of getting around that in the near future. >>>>> >>>>>But consider this: does it really matter if someone tries to cheat?? >>>>> >>>>>Can an operator really improve a program's performance? Don't forget that the >>>>>time control is quite fast (30 10, or 45 10). I think that the programs are so >>>>>strong now that even if someone cheated by manually choosing different moves, it >>>>>would be very tough to do any better than letting the computer play by itself. >>>>> >>>>>For every move a human can improve on, there are probably 2 other moves where >>>>>they just stuff up. It might be easy to poke holes in computer play AFTER the >>>>>game (hindsight is a wonderful thing), but not nearly so easy to do this >>>>>confidently DURING the game. >>>>> >>>>>I guess someone could use another program to cheat with, but really lets not get >>>>>too paranoid here. Most of the participants are quite well known in these >>>>>circles, and seem to be pretty trustworthy. >>>> >>>>There are many aspects, I will limit myself to one. >>>> >>>>Speaking only for myself: I don't want to become into the temptation to >>>>cheat. >>>> >>>>[Q] Do I trust myself? >>>>[A] Yes. >>>> >>>>[Q] Do I COMPLETELY trust myself? >>>>[A] No. >>>> >>>>Here is a story from a long time ago, actually it was my first tournament >>>>the WCCC 1986 in Cologne. Playing in the last round Rebel had a winning >>>>position and if Rebel would win that game then Rebel was the new world >>>>champion all classes. >>>> >>>>On a given moment it was considering 2 moves, the good move and a losing >>>>move. When I saw Rebel was changing its mind to the bad move somebody told >>>>me I should press the "force move" button so the good move would have been >>>>played. I wasn't willing. Then the person in question moved his hand to the >>>>"force move" button and "in a second" I had to decide what to do. I did the >>>>right thing and pushed his hand away. Rebel played the bad move and Rebel >>>>lost the game. After the game I was called stupid throwing away the title. >>>> >>>>In that remarkable "second" the option "why not" certainly crossed my mind >>>>and I think that nobody is excluded from such temptations when so much is >>>>at stake. >>>> >>>>[Q] What will I do next time? >>>>[A] Probably the same >>>> >>>>So I end as I started: I don't want to become into the temptation to >>>>cheat, not anymore. >>>> >>>>To make Internet tournaments trustworthy you need rules. >>>> >>>>Ed >>> >>>While it's good that you were able to resist the suggestion (and it's also good >>>that you won in 1992 anyway! :-), not having a "force move" keystroke built into >>>the software in the first place would have prevented any moral dilemmas from >>>arising. >> >>In a public event there is at least the obstacle you can get caught. Let's >>keep it that way. >> >>Ed >> >> > > >Just remember that you have used an operator in the past that has used the >"move now" button _many_ times at ACM/WCCC events. So it _can_ happen there. >It _can_ happen on ICC. Do I think the probability is higher at one than the >other? No. Those that will cheat will cheat. Those that won't, won't. I >don't think the 'medium' being used matters. Over the internet, over the >phone, in person, via proxy, etc... If someone wants to cheat, it would be >practically impossible to prevent it. In the Ten Commandments there is a commandment that speaks about not bringing people in temptation. In Holland we say: Don't leave the fox to watch the geese. Ed
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