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Subject: Re: Faster, deeper and more of such...

Author: Andrew Dados

Date: 11:37:13 09/14/00

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On September 14, 2000 at 14:14:31, Andrew Dados wrote:


I also noticed one interesting thing about your data: % of fail low is very
constant through all depths - meaning you probably finish search for current
move if time runs out. That column contradicts % of fail high column.

However that all maybe 'build' in the game itself. Player can not change 'ideal
game score' (as in TBs) with his move - he can only retain it or blunder to
worse score. That itself can be a 'proof' for diminishing returns effect - since
there are several equally 'best' moves in most positions....

-Andrew-



>On September 14, 2000 at 13:42:49, Ed Schröder wrote:
>
>>In the upcoming Rebel Century 3.0 I have implemented a little
>>statistic routine that reveals something about the nature of SEARCH
>>that could be important for the future of computer chess in the sense
>>that it says "something" one may expect in the near future because
>>of faster and faster PC's.
>>
>>Research on this issue have already been done by Bob and Ernst and
>>it has made me curious so I have spend a little time on it. The
>>statistic shows 2 things:
>>
>>a) number of fail-low's for each depth;
>>b) number of "changed moves" for each depth.
>>
>>(a) is not so important as often fail-low's do not mean anything but I
>>wanted to know anyway.
>>
>>(b) is extremely important as it shows for each depth how many times
>>Rebel changed its mind. As you can see in the below statistic the %
>>diminish and diminish the deeper Rebel goes.
>>
>>How to read the overview:
>>- first column: iteration depth;
>>- second column: number of times the depth was reached;
>>- third column: number of fail-low's;
>>- fourth column: percentage of fail-low's;
>>- Fifth column: number of changed moves;
>>- Last column: percentage of changed moves;
>>
>>SEARCH OVERVIEW
>>===============
>>
>>1      4726         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>2      4726      1000 (21)     1889 (39)
>>3      4726       495 (10)     1468 (31)
>>4      4719       209 ( 4)     1085 (22)
>>5      4719       218 ( 4)     1222 (25)
>>6      4699       191 ( 4)     1139 (24)
>>7      4655       141 ( 3)      948 (20)
>>8      4572       109 ( 2)      837 (18)
>>9      4457        79 ( 1)      777 (17)
>>10      3998        86 ( 2)      644 (16)
>>11      3015        64 ( 2)      374 (12)
>>12      1904        55 ( 2)      204 (10)
>>13      1093        37 ( 3)       77 ( 7)
>>14       584        22 ( 3)       35 ( 5)
>>15       356        15 ( 4)       22 ( 6)
>>16       230         7 ( 3)        6 ( 2)
>>17       157         6 ( 3)        2 ( 1)
>>18       123         6 ( 4)        3 ( 2)
>>19        88         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>20        67         0 ( 0)        1 ( 1)
>>21        55         0 ( 0)        1 ( 1)
>>22        54         0 ( 0)        1 ( 1)
>>23        50         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>24        47         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>25        40         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>26        30         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>27        28         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>28        22         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>29        19         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>30        14         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>31        14         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>32        13         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>33        12         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>34        12         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>35        10         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>36        10         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>37        10         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>38        10         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>39        10         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>40         8         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>41         8         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>42         5         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>43         4         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>44         3         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>45         3         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>46         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>47         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>48         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>49         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>50         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>51         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>52         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>53         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>54         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>55         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>56         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>57         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>58         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>59         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>60         2         0 ( 0)        0 ( 0)
>>
>>After iteration 19 one hardly sees any changes. One might wonder
>>if a doubling in speed is still good for 50-70 elo (as often said
>>here).
>>
>>One thing that should be added to the overview is a division in
>>middle-game and end-game (I think).
>>
>>The overview was created by playing a 40/40 auto232 match (about
>>50 games). Results are automatically kept so that a next auto232
>>match the statistic is automatically updated.
>>
>>Also if you are playing your normal (manual) games or analyze positions
>>the statistic is maintained. It would be nice to see how the statistic
>>would look like after say 100,000 moves.
>>
>>Ed
>
>'the depth was reached' <> 'the search for that depth was finished'.
>Thus there is some chance that your 'diminishing return effect' data can be
>misleading.
>
>Could you possibly modify your code not to count unfinished plys? That would
>give much consistent data imo. (Note that given about 1/2 time is spent on best
>move (PV) search, and considering random time of exiting search, data for
>unfinished plys could be around 2 times higher if last ply searches were
>actually completed).
>
>-Andrew-



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