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Subject: Re: Bob, are programs at GM level?!

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 12:53:39 09/20/00

Go up one level in this thread


On September 20, 2000 at 14:26:26, Uri Blass wrote:

>On September 20, 2000 at 13:06:20, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On September 20, 2000 at 01:24:30, Jouni Uski wrote:
>>
>>>On September 19, 2000 at 10:22:03, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 18, 2000 at 17:42:06, odell hall wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hello CCC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  How many think the new SSDF List is relatively Accurate?  Personally I commend
>>>>>SSDF for doing a outstanding Job, Based on my observations of the grandmaster
>>>>>Challenge and other 40/2 events, I think the list is very reliable.
>>>>>I believe it is safe to say that any top program  running on a K62-450 is 2500
>>>>>elo, or very near.  I think that now that the rating has been significantly
>>>>>lowered, this list will be taken far more seriously in determining Fide rating
>>>>>for Modern Programs. I am curious if some skeptics of the List in the Past,
>>>>>consider the list still to high, or Just about right?  Opinions Welcome
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>For anyone that understands the statistics in the Elo system, the correction
>>>>makes zero sense.  There is no way to take two totally different rating pools,
>>>>and adjust one set of ratings to make them comparable to the others.  As has
>>>>been pointed out so many times here, the _difference_ between two ratings is
>>>>the _important_ piece of data.  Not the raw ratings themselves.  All this
>>>>correction does is attempt to correct highly over-rated numbers on the SSDF
>>>>list.  Adjusting _all_ ratings on their list changes _nothing_ of course.  And
>>>>it still doesn't mean that their ratings have anything to do with FIDE ratings,
>>>>other than the top programs are now a bit closer to "reality ratings"...
>>>
>>>But are You still claiming programs are NOT at GM level?
>>>In reality they 100% sure are.
>>>
>>>Jouni
>>
>>
>>100% sure based on what?  100% opinion?
>>
>>The crux is this:
>>
>>If a GM plays "normal chess" vs a computer, then the computer will do OK.
>>It will _not_ run the GM off the board, but the computer will certaily play
>>and produce results as if it were a GM.
>>
>>If a GM plays "anti-computer chess" then this changes.  And the machines will,
>>in general, look silly.  They will fall into silly draws.  They will fall into
>>silly losses.  They will still win a few.  But they won't be confused with a GM
>>in any way.
>
>I think that if they play with super GMs of 2700 then they can score less than
>50% and still get the GM norms.


Sure they will.  On occasions.  Statistics not only predicts this, but demands
it.  But they won't come often, IMHO.

>
>Deep Junior did 4.5 out of 9 against average rating of more than 2700 and part
>of the GM's tried to play anti computer chess.

Some tried, most didn't.  Of the ones that tried they had more successes than
those that didn't try.


>
>Part did not succeed to win.
>Anand tried to play something that works against Fritz but Junior is different.
>Adams tried to play something that worked in blitz against Junior but tournament
>time control was a different story.
>
>I guess that part of the GM's prefer to play the board and they will never play
>anti computer chess.

For the time being.  But when they begin to get dislodged from finishing where
they want at a tournament, I'll bet they begin to "study the problem" a bit more
seriously.



>
>3.5 out of 9 in 2 similiar tournaments is going to be enough to get the GM
>title.

I haven't seen a tourney where 3.5 of 9 would be a GM norm, unless you only
include the top 8 GMs in the world (maybe).  However, 2 norms isn't the _only_
requirement.  They have to maintain a GM rating in the FIDE list for the time
they are working on the norms.




>
>It may have problems to get the GM norm in tournaments against weaker players
>who play for a draw inspite of getting more than 50% but players can choose the
>tournament they play to get the GM norms and they can play only in tournaments
>when their rating is lower than the average rating.
>
>Uri



Do you think top-level tournaments will allow computers that have not competed
in the regular tournaments to play?  They wouldn't allow a human in.  But they
might allow a computer, _if_ the sponsor contributes enough cash to make it
"interesting" I suppose.



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