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Subject: Re: KRB Vs KR - Mate in 50

Author: Mark Young

Date: 05:11:19 09/26/00

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On September 26, 2000 at 05:31:47, Uri Blass wrote:

>On September 26, 2000 at 05:00:19, Mark Young wrote:
>
>>On September 25, 2000 at 22:28:03, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On September 25, 2000 at 15:40:20, Mark Young wrote:
>>>
>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 13:48:30, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 13:21:34, Mark Young wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 09:01:19, Antonio Dieguez wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>hello!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I come to ask two things, please...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What are the results of the basics endgames KRB vs KR and KRN vs KR, both draws?
>>>>>>> if it is, there is some exceptions except the obvius?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And can someone post some of these mate in n positions with n very very very
>>>>>>>high?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Easy position to win!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>This is wrong.  _most_ KRB vs KR and KRN vs KR are _drawn_.  There are some
>>>>>wins for the stronger side, and even a couple of wins for the side without
>>>>>the B/N, but in general these are dead draws.
>>>>
>>>>You must not have had your coffee yet today, but the above is known as sarcasm.
>>>>
>>>>Thank you for the info on KRB vs KR endings I did not know that.
>>>
>>>
>>>Sorry... I apparently missed the sarcasm.  :)
>>>
>>>It is amazing that an extra piece can't force a win.  And it is more amazing
>>>that because of this, many programs will evaluate a KRB vs KRPP as winning for
>>>the KRB, when in reality, the RPP wins or it is a draw, the RB has _no_ winning
>>>chances.
>>
>>:) I thought you would have understood, the point being that even though the
>>position is a win for the stronger side in this case, what human could win this,
>>as one minor slip brings the position back to a draw again. The win is so
>>complex if you look at the mating line, a player would have to calculate all the
>>move to mate, as positional judgement just fails in positions like this.
>
>The distance to conversion is clearly smaller than 100 plies so some small
>mistakes are not going to prevent white to do the mate.
>
>It is clearly that white have to calculate but positional judgement can also
>help(if you learned winning positions before it can help because you know target
>positions to go for).
>
>It is possible that GM's who learned KRB vs KR can mate at tournament time
>control against programs with tablebases from this position and I do not know.
>
>Uri

You are mistaken, KRB Vs KB is to complex for any positional judgement. Take a
look at the below position. Tell me if this almost identical position is a win
or a draw without tablebase, you can only use human calculation or positional
judgement. If the below position is a draw, tell us what positional factors you
used to come to that conclusion.

[d]5k2/1R6/8/5K2/3B4/8/8/4r3 w - - 0 1








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