Author: Peter Kappler
Date: 22:48:16 09/27/00
Go up one level in this thread
On September 28, 2000 at 00:26:24, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On September 27, 2000 at 12:21:30, Peter Kappler wrote: > >>On September 27, 2000 at 09:38:02, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On September 26, 2000 at 15:45:26, Peter Kappler wrote: >>> >>>>On September 26, 2000 at 10:24:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 23:48:05, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 22:26:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 21:03:09, Ricardo Gibert wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 13:48:30, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 13:21:34, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On September 25, 2000 at 09:01:19, Antonio Dieguez wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>hello! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I come to ask two things, please... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>What are the results of the basics endgames KRB vs KR and KRN vs KR, both draws? >>>>>>>>>>> if it is, there is some exceptions except the obvius? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>And can someone post some of these mate in n positions with n very very very >>>>>>>>>>>high? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Easy position to win!! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>This is wrong. _most_ KRB vs KR and KRN vs KR are _drawn_. There are some >>>>>>>>>wins for the stronger side, and even a couple of wins for the side without >>>>>>>>>the B/N, but in general these are dead draws. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>These are generally draws, but they are not "dead draws". I watched an IM Ben >>>>>>>>Finegold lose a drawn, but otherwise normal position in just such an ending at a >>>>>>>>tournament despite the aid of adjournment analysis. Ask him. I bet he remembers. >>>>>>>>It was against a computer and it cost him a lot of money. You must be thinking >>>>>>>>of KR vs KB, which is generally mindlessly easy to hold. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I didn't say "mindlessly easy to draw". I said "dead drawn". IE most of >>>>>>>the positions are draws. KRN vs KR is easy to draw as a human. KRB vs KR is >>>>>>>harder to draw but it is _still_ a well-known draw. Although there are some >>>>>>>programs that don't know this and blunder into it thinking they are a whole >>>>>>>piece up for about 50 moves... >>>>>> >>>>>>Ahem. I never claimed you said KRBKR was "mindlessly easy to draw". You're >>>>>>having problems understanding simple english. >>>>>> >>>>>>KRBKR is not a "dead draw". A good player stands a fair chance of losing that >>>>>>ending. Do you think you yourself can reliably hold it against Crafty? >>>>> >>>>>I'm not having any trouble with English here. "dead drawn" means "unwinnable". >>>>>Not "easily unwinnable" or "unwinnable if the opponent plays a perfect (and >>>>>difficult to follow) series of moves." >>>>> >>>> >>>>I have to agree with Ricardo. I think you're using the word "dead" way too >>>>loosely here. >>>> >>>>"Dead drawn" implies that there are no difficult moves to find, and no chances >>>>of getting swindled. You don't hear KRBKR described as a dead draw, because >>>>everybody knows that the drawing technique is difficult. Same thing for many >>>>theoretically drawn KQPKQ and KRPKR endings. The defender has to play >>>>accurately in these positions. >>>> >>>>I sure as heck wouldn't offer a draw from the stronger side of KRBKR. I'd >>>>torture my opponent for a couple of hours and make him prove it. :) >>>> >>>>--Peter >>>> >>> >>> >>>I use the term "dead drawn" for positions where there is no hope to win. For >>>an example, set up any krb vs kr with Crafty and play it out. You'll then >>>appreciate the dead drawn description. >>> >>>:) >>> >> >> >>Nice try, but "dead drawn" is supposed to be a general description of a >>position. Factoring in the strength of the players just adds an unnecessary >>assymetry. For example, if I have the rook, and Crafty has the rook+bishop, >>suddenly it's not a dead draw. >> >>--Peter >> > > >In that regard, KNN vs K is not a dead draw. The side with the K can always >blunder. You've missed the point entirely. Or you just enjoy being stubborn. I strongly suspect the latter... :) > >I call this a dead draw because I know that if Crafty trades into a KRB vs KR >is it _not_ going to win most of them, assuming the opponent is an IM, a GM, >or a Computer. > That's an awkward definition of "dead drawn", but this thread has gone on long enough, so I think I will bow out for now. --Peter
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