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Subject: Re: move in *zero* seconds?

Author: Oliver Roese

Date: 08:08:28 10/09/00

Go up one level in this thread


On October 09, 2000 at 10:12:16, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On October 09, 2000 at 02:08:38, Dave Gomboc wrote:
>
>>On October 08, 2000 at 23:09:22, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On October 08, 2000 at 13:55:12, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 08, 2000 at 13:41:07, Oliver Roese wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On October 08, 2000 at 13:06:05, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On October 08, 2000 at 12:20:43, Oliver Roese wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On October 08, 2000 at 09:28:44, Mike S. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Should programs be able, or be allowed, to move in *zero* seconds of thinking
>>>>>>>>time?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I don't think so (except when the pondering prepared for an opponent's move
>>>>>>>>which is actually played), but I'd like to hear what others, especially blitz
>>>>>>>>players or users who have programs play blitz/lightning at servers, think about
>>>>>>>>this. Is it fair, to make series of moves in zero seconds?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Probably, long sequences of very low quality moves in engine matches could be
>>>>>>>>avoided also, by forcing a minimum of 1 second (i.e. as a common standard in
>>>>>>>>computer chess programs).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>M.Scheidl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In opening and (very late) endgame computers act (almost) optimally.
>>>>>>>So surely nobody could say a competition in this case is "fair".
>>>>>>>Maybe "interesting" oder "challenging" for someone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I tried to match some computer-accounts on fics with a 2-12 timecontrol.
>>>>>>>But almost all dont allow that (surprise, surprise;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Oliver
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think that they will allow standard 2-15 or 20-20 time control when you have
>>>>>>better chances so I do not understand why do you need 2-12 time control unless
>>>>>>the target is to increase your blitz rating.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I do not like the fact that the players care about rating and I think they
>>>>>>should care only about the game they play and not about rating when it is clear
>>>>>>that the rating is clearly distorted(the fact that people can inflate their
>>>>>>rating prove that the rating is distorted).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Uri
>>>>>
>>>>>Sorry, but i have to take that as insulting, since you say i am acting not as a
>>>>>sportsman. I hope you regret your remark soon, so that we can continue to talk
>>>>>about computerchess, thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>>Oliver
>>>>
>>>>I apologize if I insulted you.
>>>>
>>>>I only wanted to say that 2 12 games against computers inflate the rating of
>>>>humans and avoiding 2 12 games against humans inflate the rating of computers.
>>>>
>>>>I wanted to say also that I do not like the fact that people can increase their
>>>>rating by these means.
>>>>
>>>>I think that if you are not interested in rating(I think they are meaningless
>>>>because of the distorted system) you can play standard time control games
>>>>against computers that are slightly slower than the 2 12 time control.
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>
>>>
>>>I disagree here.  2 12 is _not_ blitz chess by any measure of the game I have
>>>been playing for 40 years.  5 minute chess is blitz.  I have a pretty tight
>>>formula for crafty to make blitz blitz.  and standard standard.  IM's play
>>>crafty all the time at 30 30 or whatever.  This guy is more than welcome to
>>>do that.
>>>
>>>The most frequent reason for wanting to play a computer at 2 12 blitz is to
>>>cheat by using another program.  5 3 is doable by cheaters, but it is harder.
>>>but to play crafty, if someone wants a 12 sec increment, why not 10 12?  Oh,
>>>that wouldn't affect their blitz rating...
>>
>>When I played regularly on the ICS (!), the normal blitz time control was 2 12.
>>I'm no longer active on any chess servers, and while I realise that what is
>>considered to be the normal time control has sped up over the years, I don't
>>think that offering a computer a match at 2 12 is a particular indication of
>>wanting to cheat.  It sounds to me like it's an indication of wanting to have
>>enough time to (try to :-) have a good game without going really long.  With
>>some time to think, you might be able to do something clever like build up a
>>long-range attack, instead of just getting hammered in a really quick game.
>>
>
>I am not sure about why 2 12 is wanted.  If you can play 2 12, why not 6 14
>and move it to standard, which almost _any_ computer will play on the servers.
>How different is 2 12 and 6 14?  That is the point I don't understand.
>
If you dont understand something about me, feel free to ask me.
2 12 was only a suggestion.


>I don't consider 2 12 blitz.  Nor does most of the 'strong' players I watch.
>Most GM players play more 3 0 and 5 0 than any other time control.  Although
>most are also wise enough to play 5 3 vs the computer to avoid time scrambles
>that they always lose.
>
I understand your difficulty.
There is an anomaly in fics, considering 2 12 as blitz, which it is effectively
not is.
I dont enforce you, to play under conditions you dont like. Just tell me, what
you want.

>
>
>
>>To me, "standard" was always a serious rating -- you know, 60+ minutes per
>>player per game.  Playing a computer 10 12 as standard sure doesn't fit my idea
>>of serious, and I doubt you'd want crafty to be tied up for a couple of hours at
>>a time.
>>
>>Dave
>
>
>Crafty will play 30 30 which is certainly going to be at least one hour per side
>per game.  It has even played 60 60 in the past, but I cut that by 1/2 to avoid
>games that would take 5-6 hours.


Oliver



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