Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 12:07:15 10/10/00
Go up one level in this thread
On October 10, 2000 at 13:47:17, Oliver Roese wrote: >On October 09, 2000 at 11:48:45, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On October 09, 2000 at 11:08:28, Oliver Roese wrote: >> >>>On October 09, 2000 at 10:12:16, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On October 09, 2000 at 02:08:38, Dave Gomboc wrote: >>>> >>>>>On October 08, 2000 at 23:09:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On October 08, 2000 at 13:55:12, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On October 08, 2000 at 13:41:07, Oliver Roese wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On October 08, 2000 at 13:06:05, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On October 08, 2000 at 12:20:43, Oliver Roese wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On October 08, 2000 at 09:28:44, Mike S. wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Should programs be able, or be allowed, to move in *zero* seconds of thinking >>>>>>>>>>>time? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I don't think so (except when the pondering prepared for an opponent's move >>>>>>>>>>>which is actually played), but I'd like to hear what others, especially blitz >>>>>>>>>>>players or users who have programs play blitz/lightning at servers, think about >>>>>>>>>>>this. Is it fair, to make series of moves in zero seconds? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Probably, long sequences of very low quality moves in engine matches could be >>>>>>>>>>>avoided also, by forcing a minimum of 1 second (i.e. as a common standard in >>>>>>>>>>>computer chess programs). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>M.Scheidl >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>In opening and (very late) endgame computers act (almost) optimally. >>>>>>>>>>So surely nobody could say a competition in this case is "fair". >>>>>>>>>>Maybe "interesting" oder "challenging" for someone. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I tried to match some computer-accounts on fics with a 2-12 timecontrol. >>>>>>>>>>But almost all dont allow that (surprise, surprise;) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Oliver >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I think that they will allow standard 2-15 or 20-20 time control when you have >>>>>>>>>better chances so I do not understand why do you need 2-12 time control unless >>>>>>>>>the target is to increase your blitz rating. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I do not like the fact that the players care about rating and I think they >>>>>>>>>should care only about the game they play and not about rating when it is clear >>>>>>>>>that the rating is clearly distorted(the fact that people can inflate their >>>>>>>>>rating prove that the rating is distorted). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sorry, but i have to take that as insulting, since you say i am acting not as a >>>>>>>>sportsman. I hope you regret your remark soon, so that we can continue to talk >>>>>>>>about computerchess, thank you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Oliver >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I apologize if I insulted you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I only wanted to say that 2 12 games against computers inflate the rating of >>>>>>>humans and avoiding 2 12 games against humans inflate the rating of computers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I wanted to say also that I do not like the fact that people can increase their >>>>>>>rating by these means. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think that if you are not interested in rating(I think they are meaningless >>>>>>>because of the distorted system) you can play standard time control games >>>>>>>against computers that are slightly slower than the 2 12 time control. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I disagree here. 2 12 is _not_ blitz chess by any measure of the game I have >>>>>>been playing for 40 years. 5 minute chess is blitz. I have a pretty tight >>>>>>formula for crafty to make blitz blitz. and standard standard. IM's play >>>>>>crafty all the time at 30 30 or whatever. This guy is more than welcome to >>>>>>do that. >>>>>> >>>>>>The most frequent reason for wanting to play a computer at 2 12 blitz is to >>>>>>cheat by using another program. 5 3 is doable by cheaters, but it is harder. >>>>>>but to play crafty, if someone wants a 12 sec increment, why not 10 12? Oh, >>>>>>that wouldn't affect their blitz rating... >>>>> >>>>>When I played regularly on the ICS (!), the normal blitz time control was 2 12. >>>>>I'm no longer active on any chess servers, and while I realise that what is >>>>>considered to be the normal time control has sped up over the years, I don't >>>>>think that offering a computer a match at 2 12 is a particular indication of >>>>>wanting to cheat. It sounds to me like it's an indication of wanting to have >>>>>enough time to (try to :-) have a good game without going really long. With >>>>>some time to think, you might be able to do something clever like build up a >>>>>long-range attack, instead of just getting hammered in a really quick game. >>>>> >>>> >>>>I am not sure about why 2 12 is wanted. If you can play 2 12, why not 6 14 >>>>and move it to standard, which almost _any_ computer will play on the servers. >>>>How different is 2 12 and 6 14? That is the point I don't understand. >>>> >>>If you dont understand something about me, feel free to ask me. >>>2 12 was only a suggestion. >> >>Sorry. That was a quick change of topic. my comment was about the fact that >>on all servers, 2 12 is (or was) the "default blitz time control". It doesn't >>feel like blitz to me, and I have personally played a _lot_ of blitz chess over >>the years (blitz = 5 mins per side for most any club you visit, although you >>will find many people playing even faster). >> > >Ok, i understand. > >>2 12 is a common 'signature' for a computer 'cheater'. The longer the >>increment, the easier it is to switch from the GUI, to the chess engine, and >>back again, without running out of time. That was my point. If you check >>on the servers, and you see someone that is winning maybe 1 of 4 games against >>1800 humans at 5 0, but then suddenly they play a 2800 computer and win half of >>the games, using a time control of 2 12 or some such, you _know_ what is going >>on there. >> >>I was not accusing you of using a computer, and if I implied that, then I am >>certainly sorry for doing so. It was a general comment about 12 sec increments. >>GMs refuse to play those kinds of time controls because they _know_ their >>opponents will cheat. That is why 3 0 is so very common, except against >>_known_ computers. There many GMs prefer 5 3, which is why crafty always has >>an outstanding 5 3 seek. >> >> >2 12 is not really blitz in my opinion. >But 5 3 is not "long" enough, to make the big difference, according to my >expirience. Here is why: >If you play against the machine with an inc > 0, using "guerilla-chess" you >either loose very quickly (by getting caught) or you play a very long game. Say >70 moves. >Under 5 3 controls you use then 5*60s+70*3s=510s=8m30s. >Under 2 12 controls you use then 2*60s+70*12s=960s=16m. >A big difference. > > >>> >>> >>>>I don't consider 2 12 blitz. Nor does most of the 'strong' players I watch. >>>>Most GM players play more 3 0 and 5 0 than any other time control. Although >>>>most are also wise enough to play 5 3 vs the computer to avoid time scrambles >>>>that they always lose. >>>> >>>I understand your difficulty. >>>There is an anomaly in fics, considering 2 12 as blitz, which it is effectively >>>not is. >>>I dont enforce you, to play under conditions you dont like. Just tell me, what >>>you want. >> >> >>I don't really care. Crafty will _always_ play any standard time control game, >>up to at least 30 30 and sometimes 60 60. >> >>I think 6 12 is standard. I have played some blitz matches with GM Walter >>Browne at 5 14 (I == Crafty here) and that came up as 'blitz' (no, he didn't >>do very well even at 5 14, the last match was 4 games and he won one and lost >>three). >> >>I play most any time control on request. I simply try to avoid long inc games >>in blitz, because most of the time humans end up using a computer to help. At >>5 3 it is much harder to cheat and win. >> >> >Even without getting the "blitz-bonus", i still see my chance with an inc > 0. >I once won against a multi-processor-version of fritz on chess.net under this >conditions. That got me roughly 75 ratingpoints. > >Oliver To get 75 rating points on FICS you almost have to never play a game. Using their rating system, an active player will do good to win 16 points against a player rated _much_ higher. On ICC, the K factor is 32, which is the max points you can win or lose in one game. On FICS it varies with activity. >> >> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>To me, "standard" was always a serious rating -- you know, 60+ minutes per >>>>>player per game. Playing a computer 10 12 as standard sure doesn't fit my idea >>>>>of serious, and I doubt you'd want crafty to be tied up for a couple of hours at >>>>>a time. >>>>> >>>>>Dave >>>> >>>> >>>>Crafty will play 30 30 which is certainly going to be at least one hour per side >>>>per game. It has even played 60 60 in the past, but I cut that by 1/2 to avoid >>>>games that would take 5-6 hours. >>> >>> >>>Oliver
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