Author: Vincent Diepeveen
Date: 05:26:11 10/16/00
Go up one level in this thread
On October 16, 2000 at 01:41:38, pavel wrote: I think you didn't read the purpose of my post: CAP would have lost this game most likely. Automatic generated books whatever way they are constructed without playing games just don't work. This where GMs like Nunn simply 'forget' to write down the old lines even. Just writing down new interesting moves Rab8 and g6 so they don't recommend Bc7 at all. An automatic generated book doesn't conclude this at all. >On October 15, 2000 at 18:52:45, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>Hello, >> >>I bought a few months ago NCO edition 1999. It rocked at world champs 2000. >>In dutch open i drew 2 games Petroff and could be happy with 2 draws after >>i was lost (according to diep at least) in both games. >> >>In a F'ing MAINLINE MAINLINE Petroff (in netherlands called Russian) >>i got 2 consecutive games bad out of book as i didn't feed the entire line >>as printed in NCO into my tournament book. >> >>Instead now at move 18 for black my program referred to its huge 'corbitt' >>database and got kicked butt in opening. That DIEP kept game a draw >>is looking to middlegame scores (don't watch the silly endgamescores) >>not bad. >> >>First game and here i'm real mad about myself not feeding in enough >>moves the book makers was their >>sentence at page 299 where they discuss openings: >> "However the main alternative to 2..Nc6 is is undoubtedly Petroff's >> defense 2..Nf6 pages 299-305". >> >>The petroff lines are analyzed by John Nunn. >> >>John Nunn: >> 400017 Nunn, John D.M. g ENG 2578 23 25.04.55 >> >>Game against Kallisto: >> >>e2-e4 (1:30:00,1:30:00) >>e7-e5 (1:30:00,1:29:59) book >>g1-f3 (1:29:37,1:29:59) >>g8-f6 (1:29:37,1:29:59) book >>f3xe5 (1:29:18,1:29:59) >>d7-d6 (1:29:18,1:29:59) book >>e5-f3 (1:29:03,1:29:59) >>f6xe4 (1:29:03,1:29:59) book >>d2-d4 (1:28:55,1:29:59) >>d6-d5 (1:28:55,1:29:59) book >>f1-d3 (1:28:42,1:29:59) >>f8-d6 (1:28:42,1:29:59) book >>O-O (1:28:07,1:29:59) >>O-O (1:28:07,1:29:59) book >>c2-c4 (1:27:58,1:29:59) >>c7-c6 (1:27:58,1:29:59) book >>b1-c3 (1:27:49,1:29:59) >>e4xc3 (1:27:49,1:29:59) book >>b2xc3 (1:27:41,1:29:59) >>c8-g4 (1:27:41,1:29:59) book >>c4xd5 (1:27:32,1:29:59) >>c6xd5 (1:27:32,1:29:59) book >>a1-b1 (1:27:23,1:29:59) >>b8-d7 (1:27:23,1:29:59) book >>h2-h3 (1:27:12,1:29:59) >>g4-h5 (1:27:12,1:29:59) book >>b1-b5 (1:27:04,1:29:59) >>d7-b6 (1:27:04,1:29:59) book >>c3-c4 (1:26:56,1:29:59) >>h5xf3 (1:26:56,1:29:59) book >>d1xf3 (1:26:47,1:29:59) >>d5xc4 (1:26:47,1:29:59) book >>d3-c2 (1:26:39,1:29:59) >>d8-d7 (1:26:39,1:29:59) book >> >>So far my tournament book. So far the line as printed in the >>maindiagram in NCO. Sublines give a4,g6 now as interesting as well as >>a4,Rab8 latter i find a hazardeous move, but it still better as what >>happened. To my big disgust my program fell >>into database here with a corbitt a look like collection. a4 Bc7 is not >>mentionned in NCO. >> >>a2-a4 (1:26:33,1:29:59) >>d6-c7 (1:26:33,1:29:59) book >> >>Question 0: DOES CAP (corbitt analysis project?) play this losing Bc7 move? >> >>b5-c5 (1:26:09,1:29:59) >>c7-d6 (1:26:09,1:24:59) 0.00 12 24370597 02:31 12233460 (359076) 11 0.00 >>Bc7-d6 Rc5-b5 >>a4-a5 (1:24:39,1:24:59) >> >>Note that a5 was still a book move of my opponent. The white and black >>operator both had gone to sleep a bit that it took that long >>to make the a5 book move. >> >>Question 1: Does CAP also find that a5! is an excellent move? >> >>Question 2: diep failed low when searching at Bxc5? I don't know how >>happy position is after Nc8, but after Bxc5 getting the exchange white >>sure is won (not easily to play though). >>All books realize that except my automatic generated one seemingly. >>My opponent had Nc8 in his book. >>White operator already claimed that the line Bc7 which was in book >>was bad anyway. I have to agree with him that Bc7 definitely after the >>next few moves wasn't big fun. >> >>d6xc5 (1:24:39,1:21:36) 0.19 13 18521066 02:43 14739593 (572829) 13 0.18 >>Bd6xc5 d4xc5 Nb6-c8 a5-a6 Nc8-e7 a6xb7 Ra8-b8 Qf3-e4 f7-f5 Qe4xc4 Kg8-h8 Bc1-f4 >>Rb8xb7 Rf1-d1 >>d4xc5 (1:23:14,1:21:36) >>b6-c8 (1:23:14,1:20:11) 0.65 13 14074005 00:47 10802608 (279510) 12 0.64 >>Nb6-c8 Rf1-d1 Qd7-e6 Qf3xb7 Nc8-e7 Qb7-e4 Qe6xe4 Bc2xe4 Ra8-c8 Rd1-d7 f7-f5 >>Be4-f3 >>f3-e4 (1:20:03,1:20:11) >>f7-f5 (1:20:03,1:17:24) 0.53 13 15060929 01:16 6967373 (1661693) 12 0.53 >>f7-f5 Qe4xc4 Kg8-h8 Bc1-f4 a7-a6 Rf1-d1 Qd7-c6 Bc2xf5 Nc8-b6 Qc4-c2 Nb6-c4 >>Bf4-d6 Rf8-f7 >>e4xc4 (1:18:13,1:17:24) >>g8-h8 (1:18:13,1:16:33) 0.08 13 13804859 00:16 1504361 (632842) 12 0.07 >>Kg8-h8 Bc1-f4 h7-h6 Rf1-d1 Qd7-c6 Rd1-e1 Kh8-h7 Re1-e6 Qc6-d7 c5-c6 b7xc6 Qc4xc6 >>Qd7xc6 Re6xc6 >>c1-f4 (1:16:19,1:16:33) >>c8-e7 (1:16:19,1:15:22) 0.07 12 15975522 00:33 3100325 (102333) 12 0.07 >>Nc8-e7 Rf1-d1 Qd7-e8 Bf4-d6 Rf8-f6 Bc2-a4 Ne7-c6 a5-a6 b7xa6 Qc4xa6 Ra8-c8 >>Ba4xc6 Qe8xc6 Qa6xa7 >>f1-d1 (1:14:47,1:15:22) >>d7-e8 (1:14:47,1:14:48) -0.39 13 12245500 01:00 5829358 (646036) 12 -0.39 >>Qd7-e8 Bf4-d6 Rf8-f6 Rd1-e1 Qe8-g8 Qc4xg8 Ne7xg8 Re1-b1 b7-b6 a5xb6 a7xb6 Rb1xb6 >>Rf6-f7 >> >> >>Finally my score starts dropping. At this point i realize i'm a big fool >>to rely on automatic generated book. >> >>f4-d6 (1:11:36,1:14:48) >>f8-f6 (1:11:36,1:14:48) -0.66 14 19338404 01:48 11223857 (374196) 13 -0.66 >>Rf8-f6 Rd1-e1 Qe8-g8 Bc2-b3 Qg8xc4 Bb3xc4 Ne7-g8 Bc4-d5 Ra8-d8 Bd5xb7 Rf6xd6 >>c5xd6 g7-g5 >> >>Here i felt like an idiot to have an automatic generated book. Lazy >>is not rewarding when you want to win from an old program like Kallisto. >> >> >>d1-e1 (1:10:10,1:14:48) >>e8-g8 (1:10:10,1:14:09) -0.33 14 12154436 01:18 7794165 (1092263) 13 -0.32 >>Qe8-g8 Bc2-b3 Qg8xc4 Bb3xc4 Ne7-c6 a5-a6 b7-b6 Bc4-d5 b6xc5 Bd5xc6 Ra8-g8 Re1-d1 >>Rg8-d8 >>c4xg8 (1:08:13,1:14:09) >>e7xg8 (1:08:13,1:12:05) -0.30 13 14698351 01:28 10368841 (3523677) 12 -0.30 >>Ne7xg8 Bc2-b3 b7-b6 Bb3-d5 Ra8-d8 Bd5-b7 Rf6xd6 c5xd6 Rd8xd6 a5xb6 Rd6xb6 Bb7-d5 >>e1-b1 (1:06:38,1:12:05) >>a8-c8 (1:06:38,1:10:05) -0.57 14 14499518 01:50 13338140 (465183) 13 -0.57 >>Ra8-c8 Bc2-d3 Rf6-f7 Bd3-c4 Rf7-f6 Rb1-b4 Ng8-h6 Bc4-d5 b7-b6 a5xb6 a7xb6 Rb4xb6 >>Rc8-e8 >>c2-a4 (1:03:35,1:10:05) >>b7-b6 (1:03:35,1:08:08) -0.73 15 14806382 01:34 11907385 (1221355) 15 -0.72 >>b7-b6 a5xb6 a7xb6 Rb1xb6 Rc8-a8 Ba4-c6 Ra8-d8 Bc6-d5 Rd8-e8 Rb6-b7 Rf6-h6 Kg1-f1 >>Rh6-h4 c5-c6 Ng8-f6 >> >>I felt the position was completely lost here. Also i felt >>Kallisto missed some chances here. Later study revealed it's not all that >>simple, but it sure is annoying to get this bad out of book. No way black >>can ever win this. >> >>I WANT TO WIN FROM KALLISTO. I don't want a chance to perhaps ever draw it >>if my middlegame AND endgame is a bit better as kallisto. Posting that >>diep is not that a bad engine anywhere is looking idiot if you grab an >>exchange then rest of game you are lost till the repetition occurs. >> >>a5xb6 (1:02:19,1:08:08) >>a7xb6 (1:02:19,1:07:31) -0.82 15 13051299 00:47 5738536 (966061) 14 -0.82 >>a7xb6 Rb1xb6 Rc8-a8 Ba4-b3 Ra8-e8 Kg1-h2 f5-f4 Bb3-a4 Re8-e4 Ba4-c6 Re4-c4 >>Bc6-d5 Rc4-d4 Bd5-f3 >>b1xb6 (1:01:07,1:07:31) >>f6-f7 (1:01:07,1:04:55) -0.87 13 26450477 02:04 22919634 (1227426) 13 -0.86 >>Rf6-f7 Ba4-c2 f5-f4 c5-c6 Rf7-f6 c6-c7 Rf6xd6 Rb6xd6 Rc8xc7 Bc2-d1 g7-g5 Rd6-d8 >>a4-b3 (0:57:57,1:04:55) >>f7-f6 (0:57:57,1:02:53) -1.57 14 14233602 01:29 10531574 (1855993) 14 -1.56 >>Rf7-f6 Rb6-b7 Rc8-e8 f2-f4 Ng8-h6 Bd6-e5 Rf6-g6 c5-c6 Re8-c8 Bb3-d5 Nh6-g8 c6-c7 >>Ng8-e7 Rb7-b8 >>b6-b7 (0:55:55,1:02:53) >>f5-f4 (0:55:55,1:01:59) -1.30 13 19754992 00:50 19389882 (4612559) 13 -1.30 >>f5-f4 Bd6-e5 Rf6-g6 Be5xf4 Rg6-a6 f2-f3 Ng8-f6 Kg1-h2 Nf6-e8 Bf4-e3 Ra6-a1 >>Be3-d4 Ra1-b1 >>f2-f3 (0:54:29,1:01:59) >>h7-h5 (0:54:29,1:00:16) -1.14 13 12434686 01:30 10781580 (520614) 12 -1.13 >>h7-h5 Bd6-e5 Rc8xc5 Be5-b2 Rc5-c8 Bb3xg8 Kh8xg8 Bb2xf6 Rc8-c1 Kg1-f2 Rc1-c2 >>Kf2-f1 g7xf6 Kf1-g1 >>g1-f1 (0:51:47,1:00:16) >>g8-h6 (0:51:47,0:57:05) -1.31 14 21822096 01:39 12087877 (666933) 14 -1.31 >>Ng8-h6 Bd6-e5 Rf6-g6 Bb3-c2 Rg6-g5 Be5-d4 h5-h4 c5-c6 Kh8-g8 Bc2-e4 Nh6-f7 >>Bd4-f2 Rg5-h5 Rb7-d7 >>d6-e5 (0:50:02,0:57:05) >>f6-g6 (0:50:02,0:57:05) -1.12 15 12486156 00:54 6681953 (32858) 14 -1.12 >>Rf6-g6 Bb3-c2 Rg6-g5 Be5-d4 h5-h4 c5-c6 Kh8-g8 c6-c7 Kg8-f7 Bd4-f2 Rg5-h5 Bc2-e4 >>Nh6-g8 Bf2-d4 >>b3-c2 (0:45:10,0:57:05) >>g6-g5 (0:45:10,0:57:05) -1.75 17 33894168 03:31 24877378 (2932268) 16 -1.74 >>Rg6-g5 Be5-d4 h5-h4 c5-c6 Nh6-g8 Bc2-b3 Rc8xc6 Rb7-b8 Rc6-c1 Kf1-f2 Rc1-c2 >>Kf2-e1 Rc2-c1 Ke1-d2 Rc1-h1 Rb8xg8 Kh8-h7 Rg8-f8 Rg5xg2 Kd2-d3 g7-g5 >>e5-d4 (0:43:37,0:57:05) >>h5-h4 (0:43:37,0:57:03) -1.91 16 10320260 00:10 1216415 (147853) 15 -1.90 >>h5-h4 c5-c6 Nh6-g8 Bc2-b3 Rc8xc6 Rb7-b8 Rc6-c1 Kf1-f2 Rc1-c2 Kf2-e1 Rc2-c1 >>Ke1-d2 Rc1-h1 Rb8xg8 Kh8-h7 Rg8-f8 Rg5xg2 Kd2-d3 g7-g5 Bb3-e6 >>c2-e4 (0:39:53,0:57:03) >>c8-d8 (0:39:53,0:55:12) -1.29 14 12377125 01:10 7888430 (2054727) 14 -1.28 >>Rc8-d8 c5-c6 Rd8xd4 c6-c7 Rd4-d1 Kf1-f2 Rg5-c5 Rb7-b8 Nh6-g8 c7-c8Q Rc5xc8 >>Rb8xc8 g7-g5 Kf2-e2 Rd1-a1 >>d4-f2 (0:37:30,0:55:12) >>d8-d1+ (0:37:30,0:53:40) -1.32 14 9865945 00:56 6145959 (825735) 13 -1.31 >>Rd8-d1 Kf1-e2 Rd1-c1 c5-c6 Nh6-g8 c6-c7 Rc1-c4 Ke2-d3 Rc4-c1 Bf2xh4 Rg5xg2 >>Be4-f5 Rg2-c2 c7-c8Q Rc2xc8 Bf5xc8 Rc1xc8 >>f1-e2 (0:34:20,0:53:40) >>d1-a1 (0:34:20,0:53:40) -1.90 14 19313784 01:20 8079993 (1768668) 13 -1.90 >>Rd1-a1 c5-c6 Ra1-a2 Ke2-f1 Ra2-a1 Be4-b1 Ra1-a8 Bf2-d4 Nh6-f7 Rb7xf7 Ra8-b8 >>Bb1-e4 Rb8-d8 >>c5-c6 (0:31:14,0:53:40) >>a1-a2+ (0:31:14,0:53:40) -2.76 13 17941154 00:07 709497 (165973) 12 -2.75 >>Ra1-a2 Ke2-f1 Ra2-a1 Be4-b1 Rg5-d5 c6-c7 Rd5-d1 Kf1-e2 Rd1-c1 Rb7-b8 Nh6-g8 >>c7-c8Q Rc1xc8 Rb8xc8 Ra1xb1 Bf2xh4 >>e2-f1 (0:28:14,0:53:40) >>a2-a1+ (0:28:14,0:53:40) -2.52 16 19476903 01:32 10232137 (633840) 15 -2.52 >>Ra2-a1 Bf2-e1 Nh6-g8 Rb7-b8 Rg5-c5 Kf1-e2 Ra1-a2 Ke2-d3 Ra2xg2 Be1-b4 g7-g5 >>Bb4-c3 Rc5xc3 Kd3xc3 Rg2-h2 Be4-d5 Rh2xh3 >>f2-e1 (0:25:22,0:53:40) >>h6-g8 (0:25:22,0:52:32) -2.55 16 25756901 02:16 14878552 (1782140) 16 -2.55 >>Nh6-g8 Rb7-b8 Ra1-c1 Kf1-f2 Rg5-c5 Be1-d2 Rc1-c2 Be4xc2 Rc5xc2 Kf2-e2 Rc2xc6 >>Bd2xf4 Rc6-g6 Ke2-f1 Rg6-b6 >>b7-b2 (0:22:25,0:52:32) >>g5-c5 (0:22:25,0:51:04) -1.66 13 9922991 00:58 6567590 (207475) 12 -1.65 >>Rg5-c5 c6-c7 >>f1-e2 (0:20:57,0:51:04) >>a1-a8 (0:20:57,0:49:39) -1.75 13 9459359 01:23 9288936 (1042457) 13 -1.75 >>Ra1-a8 Be1xh4 Ng8-f6 Bh4xf6 g7xf6 Rb2-c2 Rc5-g5 Ke2-f2 Ra8-g8 Kf2-f1 Rg8-c8 >>Rc2-d2 >>e1xh4 (0:18:11,0:49:39) >>g8-f6 (0:18:11,0:49:39) 0.00 16 20045445 01:48 13225221 (141729) 15 0.00 >>Ng8-f6 Bh4xf6 g7xf6 Rb2-c2 Rc5xc2 Be4xc2 Ra8-a5 Bc2-e4 f6-f5 Be4-c2 Ra5-c5 >>Bc2-a4 Rc5-c4 Ba4-b5 Rc4-c5 Bb5-a4 >>h4xf6 (0:16:32,0:49:39) >>g7xf6 (0:16:32,0:49:39) -0.05 14 11148088 00:32 4020665 (387503) 13 -0.04 >>g7xf6 Rb2-b4 f6-f5 Be4-b1 Rc5xc6 Rb4xf4 Rc6-c1 Bb1xf5 Ra8-a2 Ke2-d3 Kh8-g7 g2-g4 >>Rc1-d1 Kd3-c3 Kg7-f6 Bf5-b1 Kf6-e6 Bb1xa2 Ke6-e5 >>b2-c2 (0:14:47,0:35:00) >>c5xc2+ (0:14:47,0:34:01) 0.00 13 9650742 00:18 2934203 (63584) 12 0.00 >>Rc5xc2 Be4xc2 Ra8-a5 Bc2-b3 Ra5-c5 Bb3-a4 Rc5-c4 Ba4-b5 Rc4-c5 Bb5-a4 >>e4xc2 (0:13:46,0:34:01) >>a8-a5 (0:13:46,0:34:01) 0.00 13 11571351 00:22 4406197 (105880) 12 0.00 >>Ra8-a5 Bc2-b3 Ra5-c5 Bb3-a4 Rc5-c4 Ba4-b5 Rc4-c5 Bb5-a4 >>c2-b3 (0:11:43,0:34:01) >>a5-c5 (0:11:43,0:34:01) 0.00 13 23224279 01:10 13513488 (462538) 13 0.00 >>Ra5-c5 Bb3-a4 Rc5-c4 Ba4-b5 Rc4-c5 Bb5-a4 >>b3-a4 (0:10:36,0:34:01) >>c5-a5 (0:10:36,0:34:01) 0.00 13 12751860 01:02 12063113 (1065042) 13 0.00 >>Rc5-a5 Ba4-b3 >>a4-b3 (0:09:10,0:34:01) >>a5-c5 (0:09:10,0:33:04) 0.00 12 11714607 00:21 4561003 (484633) 12 0.00 >>Ra5-c5 Bb3-a4 >>b3-a4 (0:07:26,0:33:04) >>c5-a5 (0:07:26,0:32:09) 0.00 13 11361148 00:51 10695781 (795974) 13 0.00 >>Rc5-a5 Ba4-b3 >> >>White Bart Weststrate and his brother who are cool guys >>commented on this: "this was >>an exciting game!". Yes it was exciting, and yes i found it very pleasant >>how Bart and his brother and Koen and me could communicate, but i felt >>very sick about this game. >> >>Vincent > >If you have so much complains about CAP, why bother using it? >dont use it........no harm done. > >Pavel
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