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Subject: Re: After......42.....g5

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 07:05:29 10/18/00

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On October 18, 2000 at 03:54:08, Uri Blass wrote:

>On October 17, 2000 at 20:53:45, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On October 17, 2000 at 14:25:32, Chessfun wrote:
>>
>>>On October 17, 2000 at 14:23:38, Chessfun wrote:
>>>
>>>>On October 17, 2000 at 14:22:19, Chessfun wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On October 17, 2000 at 14:19:56, Enrique Irazoqui wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On October 17, 2000 at 14:17:46, Chessfun wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Rd7+ Re7 Qb3+ Kf8 Rd6 Nxe5 Qc3 b4
>>>>>>>depth 11 +3.18
>>>>>>
>>>>>>WHAT??? No way (I hope).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Kramnik,V - Kasparov,G
>>>>>>8/5k1p/p1nRrp1P/PpP2qp1/4p3/4B3/1P3PP1/3Q2K1 w - - 0 1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Analysis by Deep Fritz T28:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>43.Rd7+ Kg6 44.Rg7+ Kxh6 45.Qd7 Re5 46.Rxh7+ Qxh7 47.Qxc6 Kg6
>>>>>>  ²  (0.44)   Depth: 11/28   00:00:50  6786kN
>>>>>>  ²  (0.50)   Depth: 12/32   00:01:55  15933kN
>>>>>>
>>>>>>(Irazoqui, Cadaqués 17.10.2000)
>>>>>
>>>>>Still showing
>>>>>Rd7+ Re7 Qb3+ kf8 Rd6 Nxa5 Qc3 b4 Qxf6+ etc
>>>>>
>>>>>Depth 13. +2.84
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll check after Rd7+ Kg6
>>>>>
>>>>>Sarah.
>>>>
>>>>Added score.
>>>
>>>if Kg6
>>>Rg7+ Kxh6 Rc7 Qe5 QD7 Ne7 g4 Kg7 Bd4 Qxe6 Qxc7 Bxf6+ Kf8
>>>+3.88 Depth 12
>>>
>>>Sarah.
>>
>>
>>That eval is too big.  IE this is another example.  I don't recall this
>>exact position but white is either up 1 or 2 pawns (2 I think) but with
>>lots of holes and a queen and knight to deal with.
>>
>>Most programs had this as +1 to +1.3 in this stage of the game.  I became
>>less and less optimistic for white as I watched, as the queen is simply a real
>>pain, and the knight is the optimal piece to have working with the queen in a
>>board with pawns moved everywhere.
>>
>>I wasn't surprised by the outcome, particularly.  If programs say +2 or less,
>>draws don't cause any speculation or bug-hunting...
>>
>>I think the krnp vs kr might have been easier to win than this game was.  Of
>>course, taking time to eat the a-pawn in this game might have cost white more
>>than he thought...
>
>I suspect that the score of Krnp vs Kr of chess tiger is bigger so the fact that
>it is more easy to win does not say that the evaluation is wrong.
>
>Chesstiger did not like kramnik's moves so the fact that the game was drawn does
>not prove that the evaluation was wrong.
>
>The question is if chesstiger can win other programs.
>
>Uri


Here is why I think that number is "too big".

We know that the position is a likely draw, based on the actual game.  Yet
Tiger said "3.x".  This means that Tiger could go for the same position, a
piece _down_, and still say the score is slightly positive.  And we _know_
that this position with white a piece down would _not_ be a draw.

Wouldn't it be ugly to have to choose between being equal in material at +.2,
or this position with a missing white piece at +.3, and to choose the +.3 which
would lose?  That is the danger of large speculative scores.  It has happened to
me _many_ times...



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