Author: Jeroen Noomen
Date: 08:01:43 12/31/97
Go up one level in this thread
> >With amusement, I note Ed Schroder's attampt to get me censored or >banned or whatever by the moderators. > >I stick by my position: > >1. Marty Hirsch has denied in his post here on CCC that the Mchess book >is fixed or targeted or whatever on any specific opponent. He was >prepared to answer in detail the key questions. Which is different from what the openingbook editor of MChess said previously. And what is different from what Thorsten, I and all the others (read the magazines, please!) found out. Which you haven't verified. So the denying of Marty is strong enough for you to rule out all the other facts. >2. Jeroen Noomen (Ed's opening book editor) has stated, after all the >arguing, that the Mchess book is cooked in this way. Which was supported by me by way of facts. And has also been concluded by others. Besides, it was not me who started this discussion. Further- more I conclude that a) You have never verified the facts, nor tried out yourself if these findings were true. b) You sidestep the facts and point all the blame on the Rebel-team, which sounds more like an allegation to me, because it is not based on facts, but on your subjective feelings. c) Your way of discussing is to attack others, instead of listening to arguments and facts. Sorry, I don't like this way of discussing and I don't want to get on with it this way. >3. Neither Ed, nor any of his team, ever makes any attack type comment >on any other program; Ed (and his team) is very careful not to do this. >Except with Mchess .Last year, and now this year also. Note the use of >the word 'disgusting' with reference to the Mchess programming. Wrong reading again. This is not said about MCP, but about book-cooking in general. Chris, what do you want? What is your point? Are you trying to provoke a censorship? >4. When I point this out, and ask why, and challenge the basis of the >attacks, Ed reponds with trying to close down the thread, >counter-accusing, muddying the issue by introducing Thorsten, and >finally by trying to get me censored by the moderators. >5. Ed also accuses me of making untrue allegations etc. etc. without >ever specifically referring to any concrete point. See above. I feel your way of writing is an allegation. You are not discussing facts, but throwing dirt at the Rebel-team. I am sorry for this word, but that's the way I see it. >Now presumably the moderators can decide whether trying to get answers >and driving on with one's point is unacceptable. Or whether it is >acceptable to call another programming team 'disgusting'. There you go again! No need for comments. >Ed's appeal is basically a clique-appeal. It says please close ranks >against this troublemaker who is asking difficult questions. Shut him >up. You are not asking difficult questions. Your way of 'discussing' is trying to convince others by means of strong talk. Anyway, I am not impressed. I am more concerned about your allegations towards me. I thought this was a place to discuss facts and interesting subjects, but the way you put things this is impossible. >And, finally, this board is getting very fond of targetting one specific >individual, isolating, and hitting him. It started of course with RT, >was done to KK a few days back, and to Mchess now. I dislike the way >that almost everybody joins in, it reminds me of in-group / out-group >activity, where to be *in* you have to agree with the in-group and >attack the common enemy. With KK it was particularly bad with everybody >piling on. Thus a common faux-ideology and common faux-facts develop. Finally I want so say that you cannot have an opinion about this subject, because you have never done tests, played autoplayer games, or tried to find out in a different way if all these statements were true or not. So you are posing your 'right' in an aggressive way, giving me the impression that all the facts, found out by so many people, are not counting for you. Sorry Chris, I am not at all impressed by words, I count only facts. >My role is to provide alternative positions. Censor me if you like. >Anyway, some snippets of the threads below: > >1. Note the constant repetition of the Sandro Necchi statement. I call >constant repetition a campaign. You call it a campaign, but you don't want to verify this statement. So you are sidestepping facts. >2. Note the use of the word 'disgusting' referring to Mchess book >programming. I call using this word an attack. As said before, the book-cooking was referred to as disgusting. >3. Note Ed's desire to muddy the waters by linking in Thorsten as 'in >the CSTal team', when Ed knows perfectly well I haven't spoken to >Thorsten for several weeks. > >This is the start point of the thread. Note that Thorsten is not making >any attacks, just asking questions. >======================================================================== > >Posted by Thorsten Czub on December 25, 1997 at 12:22:40: >Has anybody collected information concerning the chess-strength of >Mchess7 ? > >Can we, relating to Mchess6, estimate ELO points from the predecessor ? >50 points increase ? >50 points down ? > >What do you think ? >Give me some feedback please. I am trying to measure the >playing-strength of it myself in the moment and would like to get some >impressions of people who had the version much earlier and have made >some deeper exoerience than I have since the delivery of it 22nd >december. > >I would say Mchess7 has really tough problems with fast-searchers. But >this is very normal to me since it has very speculative evaluations... > >Is Mchess7 stronger or weaker than mchess6 ? >Any ideas ? > > > > >Now comes Thorsten's allegation of book cooking against Mchess >=================================================== > >Posted by Thorsten Czub on December 26, 1997 at 10:59:45: > >In Reply to: Re: M-Chess Pro7 : strength ?? posted by Fernando Villegas >on December 26, 1997 at 08:27:40: >>On the results of my experience. I compare what happens in games against >>MCP6 and with his succesor. With both I lose, but the last is faster and >>sharper to do it. Better ending in MY feeling. You asked personal >>opinions and that's what I have given. No test, just my playing. > >I believe you Fernando. > >My mood while watching Mchess7 reduces more and more. >I have seen bishop-game where Mchess was 27 moves deep in book meanwhile >hiarcs computed a while. >Now I see c28 vienna game happening and we are in the 32.move and mchess >still in book. One game after the other is cooked out somewhere else >(sandro necci, or in massive autoplayer-games-merged into many >booklines), and I don't see much sense in doing this. >WHO can trust that these games, if played under the same conditions as >in the original "citchen" , will not result in the same LOSS for hiarcs >? >I play 100 games hiarcs6 vs. mcp7 and make an opening book out of the 30 >losses of hiarcs6. >Now I put these 30 games into a book. >When stupid customer or ssdf-guy plays mchess7 vs. hiarcs6 he will get >openings beginning in exactly these 30 losses and also some other >openings caused by whatever circumstances. > >I think this helps mchess7 to get a better score at all. And hiarcs gets >a weaker one. But hiarcs was released before mcp7, so it cannot defend >much. >Ok - they all have learning algorithms, but I doubt that these mechanism >will always help...not from my experience, what I have seen. > >Now Jeroen jumps in - claiming that Mchess is over-rated in the SSDF and >quoting (again) the Sandro Necchi comment As you can read, I am confirming Thorsten's view and opinion. The Sandro Necchi comment was brought up first in this one, which is a comment that is very interesting to know. I am sure you would post it as well, if you would know about it. >======================================================================== >Posted by Jeroen Noomen on December 26, 1997 at 11:52:34: > >In Reply to: Re: M-Chess Pro7 : strength ?? posted by Thorsten Czub on >December 26, 1997 at 10:59:45: >>My mood while watching Mchess7 reduces more and more. >>I have seen bishop-game where Mchess was 27 moves deep in book meanwhile >>hiarcs computed a while. >>Now I see c28 vienna game happening and we are in the 32.move and mchess >>still in book. One game after the other is cooked out somewhere else >>(sandro necci, or in massive autoplayer-games-merged into many >>booklines) > >Dear Thorsten, there have been many postings before about the way >MChess' >book has been made. I once talked to Sandro Necchi in the AEGON >tournament >and he simply admitted that he was 'outbooking' all the opponents. >Inclu- >ding Genius and Rebel. IMO MCP is overrated in the swedish list. >It gains many points this way, which can be verified simply by starting >an autoplayer match between MCP and Genius/Rebel or Hiarcs. You will see >a lot of these games..... > >If you found out more of this, please post it in CCC! > >>I think this helps mchess7 to get a better score at all. > >Exactly! Precisely my point. > >>And hiarcs gets >>a weaker one. But hiarcs was released before mcp7, so it cannot defend >>much. > >And with the next release the lines are repaired and Hiarcs gets a >normal >score versus MCP. But the damage is already done and the points are >gone. > >>Ok - they all have learning algorithms, but I doubt that these mechanism >>will always help...not from my experience, what I have seen. > >Interesting point af view. I think if all programs have a booklearner we >are at the same point as at the beginning, when nobody had a learner... >Sometimes I am getting tired of these book wars. Why not turn to normal >theory that has been played before and let the programs find out what >happens? That's fair and says more about the strength of a program in >comparison with these bookkiller-lines... > >Best regards, Jeroen > > > > >Now we have a refernence to Mchess from Jeroen >====================================== > >Note the use of the word 'disgusting' with reference to an alleged >Mchess programming behaviour. >I call this an attack. >Note also the agreement with Thorsten (so please stop referring to the >CStal team as if CW and TC are in agreement) >======================================================================== > > > >Posted by Jeroen Noomen on December 28, 1997 at 11:49:41: > >In Reply to: Re: M-Chess Pro7 : strength ?? posted by Thorsten Czub on >December 27, 1997 at 05:39:21: >On December 27, 1997 at 05:39:21, Thorsten Czub wrote: > >Thorsten, > >I completely agree with you on this subject. I cannot see why people >try to defend 40-moves opening lines ending with +4 and an easy win. >This is disgusting and not in the interest of CUSTOMERS who want to >buy a chess program. RIGHT! This is referring to book-cooking IN GENERAL. And YES, I find this disgusting! Where is the reference to MCP???? You simply throw this one in, putting these words in my mouth! I don't accept that. I am now stopping this thread, because I am quite angry about the way you treat this. You are getting personal all the time. I am having enough of this. Jeroen
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