Author: Eelco de Groot
Date: 16:45:13 10/30/00
Go up one level in this thread
On October 30, 2000 at 13:53:03, Uri Blass wrote: >On October 30, 2000 at 02:44:43, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On October 29, 2000 at 22:54:34, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On October 29, 2000 at 22:05:58, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On October 29, 2000 at 21:18:53, Eelco de Groot wrote: >>>> >>>>>On October 28, 2000 at 18:35:32, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On October 28, 2000 at 17:59:23, Timothy J. Frohlick wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>GT did consider Bb7 for about one minute after 7 minutes of thinking on my PII >>>>>>>333 with 28 Mb hash. The analysis was similar to Sarahs' afterward. The score >>>>>>>did remain negative for black however. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>GT would never "under-develope" to the extent that black did. The game is a >>>>>>>draw even with material superiority due to the horrible back rank situation. At >>>>>>>least GT tells us how "not" to play. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Tim Frohlick >>>>>> >>>>>>I posted the game. >>>>>>I do not know if gambit would get itself to the position that I posted(I think >>>>>>that bxc5 was too greedy and Ba6 was better but I did not analyze the game for a >>>>>>long time and I may be wrong). >>>>>> >>>>>>You can try to see if there is a move in the game that gambit does not like. >>>>>> >>>>>>I see that gambit understands the position better than other programs(it can at >>>>>>least see that f6 has negative score) >>>>>> >>>>>>It cannot see that Bb7 is good enough for black to draw but I am not sure if Bb7 >>>>>>is really good enough for a draw(I only know that it was probably good enough >>>>>>for moshe to draw and it is possible that gambit can improve the opponent's >>>>>>moves after Bb7) >>>>>> >>>>>>Uri >>>>> >>>>>Hi Uri, >>>>> >>>>>Maybe Tim is right and the game should be a draw. What I would like to see is a >>>>>good winning line for White after 14. .. f7-f6 or 14. ..f7-f5, that could tell >>>>>us more. >>>> >>>>Here is a winning line after 14...f5 >>>> >>>>15.Bh6 f4 16.Ng5 Nb6 17.Bxg7 Kxg7 18.Rh7+ Kg8 19.Ke2 >>>> >>>> >>>>I did not see a clear winning line after 14...f6 but I guess that I did not >>>>analyze deep enough and unfortunately moshe did not save all the analysis that >>>>he did but he is convinced that 14...f6 is losing. >>>> >>>>I see that I do not like black's position after 14...f6 because black has >>>>problems to develop the pieces and white has interesting options after 15.Bh6 >>>>Qe7 16.Bxg7 Kxg7 >>> >>>I think that the main line here continues >>>17.Qh6+ Kf7 18.Nh4 Rg8 19.Qh7+Rg7 20.Nxg6 Rxh7 21.Rxh7+ Kxg6 22.Rxe7 cxd4 >>>23.Bd3+ Kg5 24.Be4 c6 25.g3 fxe5 26.Rxe6 Nf6 27.Rxe5+ Kh6 28.Rc1 when white is >>>probably winning after 28...Nxe4 29.Rxe4 or 28...Bb7 29.Re7 Nxe4 30.Rxe4 >>> >>>This is one of the lines that moshe saved. >> >>I think that in this line better is 18.0-0-0 instead of 18.Nh4 >>At least I can get bigger advantage against the computer but I need to check if >>it is a forced win(18.0-0-0 was also one of the lines of moshe). >> >>Uri > >I talked with moshe in the phone and asked him if 18.0-0-0 was the move. >He told me that he does not remember if it was in move 18 but 0-0-0 was in the >main line that proved that white is winning so it seems that Nh4 is not the most >convincing move for white. > >Uri Thanks for giving those lines , Uri. I don't know if I or computer will have time to look at them all. Maybe Christophe or Tiger-owners will want take another look at the 14. ..f7-f5 line as that is the move that Gambit Tiger played. I was wondering a bit about 15. ..Rf8-f7 instead of 15. ..Qe8-e7 in the 14. ..f7-f6 lines that you gave, as 14. ..f7-f6 15.Bg5-h6 Rf8-f7 is what both Century 2.0 and Q5T prefer: Century 2.0, last lines after 14. ..f7-f6: 28:33 13.00 -0.45 1.Bh6 Qe7 3.Bxg7 Kxg7 4.Qh6+ Kf7 5.Nh4+ Rg8 6.Qh7+ 21:23 14.00 -0.48 1.Bh6 Qe7 3.Bxg7 Kxg7 4.Qh6+ Kf7 5.exf6+ Qxf6 6.Ng5+ Ke8 7.Nxe6 Qxf2+ 26:14 15.00 -0.35 1.Bh6 Rf7 3.Bd3 f5 4.Bxg7 Rxg7 5.Qh6 Kf8 6.Be4 You can see that at 14 ply it still follows your line but plays 18.exf6+ instead of 18.Nh4+. Q5T Experimental, last lines after 14.Qd1-c1: 16:41 12.00 -0.74 1..f6 2.Bh6 Rf7 3.Bxg7 Rxg7 4.Qh6 Kf8 5.Qh8+ Kf7 59:17 13.00 -0.96 1..f6 2.Bh6 Qe7 3.Bxg7 Kxg7 4.Qh6+ Kf7 50:16 14.00 -0.59 1..f6 2.Bh6 Rf7 3.Bxg7 Rxg7 4.Qh6 Kf8 5.exf6 Nxf6 6.Qf4 If I take Q5T a few ply further in this last line, after 14. ..f7-f6 15.Bg5-h6 Rf8-f7 16.Bh6xg7 Rf7xg7 17.Qc1-h6, the evaluation drops so I suppose White does look good here, see Q5T output, now with proper move-numbers: 00:00 04.00 -1.57 17..Kf8 18.Qh8+ Rg8 19.exf6 cxd4 00:01 05.00 -1.37 17..Kf8 18.Qh8+ Rg8 19.exf6 cxd4 20.Qh6+ 00:03 06.00 -1.20 17..Kf8 18.Qh8+ Kf7 19.exf6 Qxh8 20.Rxh8 Kxf6 21.Rxc8 cxd4 00:06 07.00 -1.20 17..Kf8 18.Qh8+ Kf7 19.exf6 Qxh8 20.Rxh8 Kxf6 21.Rxc8 cxd4 22.Nxd4 00:16 08.00 -1.12 17..Kf8 18.Qh8+ Kf7 19.exf6 Qxh8 20.Rxh8 Kxf6 21.Rxc8 cxd4 22.Nxd4 e5 00:51 09.00 -1.00 17..Kf8 18.Qh8 Kf7 19.d5 Nxe5 20.dxe6+ Bxe6 21.Nxe5+ fxe5 22.Qxe8+ Kxe8 23.Bxe6 Ke7 24.Bd5 c6 02:08 10.00 -1.39 17..Kf8 18.Qf4 Qf7 19.exf6 Rh7 20.Rxh7 05:06 11.00 -1.60 17..Kf8 18.exf6 Nxf6 19.Qf4+ Nbd7 20.Ne5 Kg8 45:28 12.00 -1.79 17..Kf8 18.Qf4 Qf7 19.exf6 Qxf6 20.Qxc7 Ba6 So okay, a draw still seems far off for Black here after 14. ..f7-f6 15.Bg5-h6 Rf8-f7, -1.79 pawns. I am still curious though how the actual game progressed after Moshe's 14. ..Bc8-b7, as Q5T is still very pessimistic after about twenty minutes: Last Move : 14... Bb7 (White to play) 00:00 04.00 0.03 15.Bh6 Bxf3 16.Bxg7 Bh5 17.Bxf8 Nxf8 00:02 05.00 2.07 15.Bh6 Bh8 16.Qf4 Bxf3 17.Bxf8 Nxf8 18.gxf3 00:05 06.00 -0.02 15.Bh6 Bh8 16.Bxf8 Qxf8 17.Ng5 cxd4 18.Nxe6 Qb4+ 00:09 06.03 -0.02 15.Bf6 00:13 06.03 4.09 15.Bf6 Nxf6 16.exf6 Qc6 17.fxg7 Qe4+ 18.Be2 Rc8 19.Qxc5 00:20 07.00 3.39 15.Bf6 Nxf6 16.exf6 e5 17.fxg7 exd4+ 18.Be2 Bxf3 00:45 08.00 3.90 15.Bf6 Nxf6 16.exf6 Bxf3 17.gxf3 e5 18.fxg7 exd4+ 19.Kf1 Kxg7 20.Qh6+ Kf6 01:28 09.00 3.64 15.Bf6 Nxf6 16.exf6 Bxf3 17.gxf3 cxd4 18.fxg7 Kxg7 19.Qh6+ Kf6 20.Qh4+ g5 21.Qxd4+ e5 03:49 10.00 3.64 15.Bf6 Nxf6 16.exf6 Bxf3 17.gxf3 Nc6 18.fxg7 Kxg7 19.Qh6+ Kf6 20.dxc5 Ke7 10:35 11.00 2.55 15.Bf6 Nxf6 16.exf6 Bxf3 17.gxf3 Nd7 18.Bb5 Nxf6 19.Bxe8 20:42 12.00 2.50 15.Bf6 Nxf6 16.exf6 Bxf3 17.gxf3 Nd7 18.fxg7 Kxg7 If I now enter the following three plies the score goes up just a little to -1.87 pawns for Black after about 1 hour 30 minutes, switching between various engines: Last Move : 15.Bf6 (Black to play) Last Move : 15... Nxf6 (White to play) Last Move : 16.exf6 (Black to play) 00:00 02.00 0.85 16.exf6 Bxf3 17.fxg7 Kxg7 18.Qh6+ Kg8 19.gxf3 00:00 03.00 -0.80 16..e5 17.fxg7 exd4+ 18.Kf1 00:00 04.00 -1.71 16..e5 17.fxg7 exd4+ 18.Kf1 Bxf3 19.gxf8=Q+ Kxf8 00:02 05.00 -4.68 16..e5 17.fxg7 exd4+ 18.Kf1 Bxf3 19.Rh8+ Kxg7 00:10 06.00 -4.68 16..e5 17.fxg7 exd4+ 18.Kf1 Bxf3 19.Rh8+ Kxg7 20.Qh6+ Kf6 00:14 06.09 -4.68 16..Bxf3 00:17 06.09 -3.81 16..Bxf3 17.gxf3 Qa4 18.fxg7 Qb4+ 19.Ke2 Kxg7 20.Qh6+ Kg8 00:22 07.00 -2.79 16..Bxf3 17.gxf3 cxd4 18.fxg7 Kxg7 19.Qd2 Rh8 20.Qxd4+ e5 21.Rxh8 exd4+ 00:45 08.00 -2.82 16..Bxf3 17.gxf3 Nd7 18.fxg7 Kxg7 19.Qh6+ Kf6 20.O-O-O Ke7 21.Qh4+ g5 22.Qxg5+ 01:45 09.00 -3.06 16..Bxf3 17.gxf3 cxd4 18.fxg7 Kxg7 19.Qh6+ Kf6 20.Qh4+ g5 21.Qxd4+ Ke7 22.Rh7 04:51 10.00 -2.13 16..Bxf3 17.gxf3 Nd7 18.fxg7 Kxg7 19.Qh6+ Kf6 20.Rd1 Ke7 21.Qh4+ f6 22.Qe4 07:36 11.00 -2.03 16..Bxf3 17.gxf3 Nd7 18.fxg7 Kxg7 19.Qh6+ Kf6 20.Qf4+ Ke7 21.dxc5 18:20 12.00 -1.86 16..Bxf3 17.gxf3 Nd7 18.fxg7 Kxg7 19.Qh6+ Kf6 20.O-O-O Ke7 21.Qh4+ g5 22.Qxg5+ 30:13 13.00 -1.87 16..Bxf3 17.gxf3 Nd7 18.fxg7 Kxg7 19.Qh6+ Kf6 20.O-O-O Rh8 Eelco
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