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Subject: Re: new paranoia

Author: Harald Faber

Date: 02:31:07 11/06/00

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On November 05, 2000 at 11:28:58, Thorsten Czub wrote:

>[Event "?"]
>[Site "?"]
>[Date "????.??.??"]
>[Round "?"]
>[White "x"]
>[Black "y"]
>[Result "1-0"]
>
>1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. f3 O-O 6. Be3 e5 7. d5 c6 8. Qd2 cxd5
>9. cxd5 a6 10. Bd3 Nh5 11. Nge2 f5 12. exf5 gxf5 13. O-O-O b5 14. g4 fxg4 15.
>fxg4 Bxg4 16. Rhg1 1-0
>
>let your famous programs compute about 16.Rhg1 please.
>
>i have e.g. Fritz6 running ...
>
>it says
>-0.19 16.Rhg1 Nf6 17.h3 Bxe2 18.Nxe2 Qc8+ 19.Kb1 Qxh3 20.Rg3 Qh5
>
>Fritz really believes BLACK is better !!
>
>junior6a says:
>
>1'55" -0.18 depth 15 16.Rhg1 Nf6 17.Bh6 Rf7 18.h3 Bxe2 19.Qxe2 b4
>5'41" -0.26 depth 16 16.Rhg1 Nf6 17.Bh6 Ra7 18.h3
>17'56" -0.21 depth 17 16.Rhg1 Nf6 17.Rdf1 b4 18.Ne4...
>
>junior believes black is slightly better...
>
>hiarcs7.32:
>
>2'44"  -0.11 depth 10/29 16.Rhg1 Nf6 17.Bg5 Qd7 18.Bxf6 Rxf6 ...
>8'7"   -0.17 depth 10/29 16.Rhg1 Nf6 17.Bg5 h5 18.Kb1 Nbd7 ...
>
>
>Now shredder4:
>
>55"   depth 10    +0.03 16.Rhg1 Qc8 17.Kc2
>4'53" depth 11    +0.11 16.Rhg1 Nf6 17.Bg5 Qd7 18.Bxf6 Rxf6 19.Qg5
>9'11" depth 12.01 +0.03 16.Rhg1 Nf6 17.h3 Bxh3 18.Bh6 Rf7 19.Rxg7
>
>shredder, as fritz, has a "could be anything" line and evaluation.
>
>chessmaster6000:
>
>1'10" 4/9   -0.36 Rhg1 Nf6 Rg3 Qc8 Kb1 b4 Ne4 Nxe4...
>9'28" 4/10  -0.13 Rhg1 Qc8 Kb1 Nf6 Rc1 Qd7 Ne4 Nxe4 ...
>27'08" 5/11 -0.30 Rhg1 Nf6 Rdf1 Nbd7 Bh6 Rf7 Bg5 Qe8 ...
>
>
>CSTal2.03:
>
>d8, 35s, -0.25, Qc2 Nf4 Bxh7+ Kh8 Rdg1 Qh4 Nf4 exf4 exf4 ...
>d9, 107s, -0.72, Qc2 b4 Bxh7+ Kh8 Na4 Nf4 Bxf4 ...
>d9, 195s, -0.48, Kb1 Nbd7 Rhg1 Ndf6 Bg5 Qc8 Rdf1 b4
>d10, 356s, -0.27, Rhg1 Qc8 Bh6 Ra7 h3 Bf3 Qe3
>
>and cstal on the right "trip"...
>
>d10, 515s, >+0.10, Rhg1 Qc8
>d10, 809s, +0.39, Rhg1 Qc8 Bh6 Ra7 Qg5 Bf3 Qe3 Raf7
>
>
>remember: cstal was designed years before gambit-tiger.
>you cannot expect that cstal gets the similar kind of
>power concerning these stuff, but - instead of dump ideas,
>it sees the main point in this position.
>
>
>Gambit-Tiger1.0
>
>2"  +1.66 d8  Rhg1 Qc8 Kb1 ...
>...
>23" +1.86 d10 Rhg1 Bf5 Rg5 Bg6 Rdg1 Nd7 Bxg6 hxg6 Rxg6 Qe8...
>36" +2.06 d11 Rhg1 Bg5 "   "    "    "    "   "   Qc2 Qe8 ...
>
>
>is really a position one of my friends lost because
>the he was so stupid to use todays chess programs
>for analysis of blacks position,
>its shocking to me.


Shocking is the way he uses programs.


>but how shall programs play and plan when they have no idea
>about what is going on on the chess-board despite counting the
>material ?


What is the point? Black is a pawn up and some programs only say +0.1 for black.
If they would only count material the eval would be +1.xx for black. It is not.
So they consider the white attack and some own king safety. What is the problem?


>You said that gambit-tiger is NOT new paradigm
>but "just tuning of evaluation functions".


Gambit Tiger, like Tal and MCP just evaluates a bit more optimistic than most of
the other programs, nothing more.


>If so : why is no other chess program evaluating Rhg1 "right" ??


What is the "right" evaluation? +2? +3? +5?
Who says what the right eval is? Based on what?


>You are mistaken. Gambit-Tiger is following the new paradigm.


Come on Thorsten, get off that "new paradigm"-shit. It is nothing spectacular,
just a bit optimistic eval and constructing king's attacks.
Maybe that let's you dance on the table and sing "new paradigm, uh uh, new
paradigm". :-)))
I don't. :-)
I enjoy it too, but there is no need to make such a hype.


>fritz, junior, shredder, ... do not see anything.


This is wrong, see above.





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