Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 10:12:12 11/06/00
Go up one level in this thread
On November 05, 2000 at 13:57:34, Uri Blass wrote:
>On November 05, 2000 at 13:31:22, Thorsten Czub wrote:
>
>>On November 05, 2000 at 11:57:26, Andrew Williams wrote:
>>[D] rn1q1rk1/6bp/p2p4/1p1Pp2n/6b1/2NBB3/PP1QN2P/2KR3R w - - 0 16
>>
>>thank you for the position.
>>
>>>I'm afraid my program isn't famous, but here is its output. It never
>>>considers that Black is better, although the score is falling as it
>>>gets deeper. I think I'll run this overnight and see what happens.
>>
>>
>>yes. the thing is not to find the move. the thing is:
>>how to evaluate the position !
>>draw ? winning for white ?
>>better for black ?
>>how to evaluate positions where there is no material win !
>>
>>> 1= 54 0 188 16. Rdf1 Rxf1 17. Rxf1
>>> 2= 54 0 252 16. Rdf1 Rxf1 17. Rxf1 Bxe2 18. Nxe2
>>> 3= 31 0 804 16. Qc2 Nf6
>>> 4= 55 0 2228 16. Qc2 Nf6 17. Rdg1
>>> 5= 35 0 8550 16. Qc2 Nf6 17. Rdg1 Nbd7
>>> 6= 58 1 40623 16. Rhg1 Bf5 17. Bg5 Qe8 18. Bh6
>>> 7= 39 5 181115 16. Rhg1 Bf5 17. Bh6 Qh4 18. Bxf5 Rxf5 19. Qc2
>>> 8= 39 19 476616 16. Qc2 Nf6 17. Rdg1 Bf3 18. Bh6 Bxh1 19. Rxg7
>>> 9= 38 59 1706262 16. Qc2 Nf6 17. Rdg1 b4 18. Bg5 h5 19. Bh7 Kh8 20.
>>>Bxf6
>>>10= 24 417 12520722 16. Rhg1 Qd7 17. Qc2 Bf5 18. Bh6 Bxd3 19. Rxd3
>>
>>the score is 0.24 ?
>>
>>>This is on a K6-2 300 which was a bit busy doing other things too. I can't
>>>comment on your views below, but one thing I will say is that PM would get
>>>crushed in a straight match against Fritz, Shredder, Junior or Hiarcs. And
>>>Gambit Tiger as well :-)
>>
>>
>>right. you can reach lots of elo when you forget about chess and just
>>count the pieces and search very deep. you can even outsearch
>>more intelligent programs. but is this chess ?
>>
>>the position above is IMO about chess.
>>its not to find the move. its to see in move 16, better in move 14,
>>that white is better and black cannot defend much longer.
>>
>>
>>i am not saying: ANY program that finds the move Rhg1 is a new-paradigm
>>program.
>>
>>but i am saying that programs of the new paradigm find out that white is better
>>and has winning chances.
>>
>>Thats what gandalf, cstal and most of all 3, gambit-tiger evaluates here.
>>
>>the new paradigm is not about FINDING key moves. Thats not playing chess.
>>it is cross-word. is cross-word-puzzle-solving beeing intelligent ? no.
>>
>>the new paradigm is not about finding key moves in positions that HAVE
>>a solution. the new paradigm is about finding a plan and evaluating
>>it as a chance in a position that is NOT solved.
>>
>>you see the difference ?
>>
>>A bednorz-toennissen test-suite has 30 positions, and the programs
>>havwe to find the key moves. its bean counting.
>>the positions are all won ! the key move is there !
>>thats not chess, its solving cross-word-puzzles.
>>
>>the differenciation is not WHICH PROGRAM finds the moves.
>>there is nothing to find. you have to invent something. therefore
>>you have to evaluate for it.
>>otherwise you won't follow the idea, or ?
>>
>>imagine you have fritz and you think: oh- the position is draw, slightly
>>better for black. and then you lose the game.
>>brilliant, isn't it ??
>
>It is not news.
>It is known that there are cases when programs are wrong in their evaluations.
>
>Here is another example from Nimzo-Shredder in the ICC tournament:
>
>[D]6k1/2Q4p/p4bp1/1pBqp3/1P2n3/P4N2/2P3PP/7K w - - 0 1
>
>programs are happy to win a pawn with Qb8+ Qd8 Qxd8+ Bxd8 Nxe5 and it is exactly
>what happened in the game but white lost the game.
>
>I do not know if Shredder was lucky to be outsearched or if Shredder had the
>right evaluation.
>We can find out only by getting Shredder's evaluation.
>
>Uri
For reference, I get this here:
13 2:27 0.65 1. Qc8+ Qd8 2. Qxa6 Qd1+ 3. Ng1 Qd5
4. Nh3 Be7 5. Qc8+ Kf7 6. Bb6 Qd2 7.
Qh8 Qe1+ 8. Ng1 <HT>
13-> 2:27 0.65 1. Qc8+ Qd8 2. Qxa6 Qd1+ 3. Ng1 Qd5
4. Nh3 Be7 5. Qc8+ Kf7 6. Bb6 Qd2 7.
Qh8 Qe1+ 8. Ng1 <HT>
Qb8 produces a score of +.38
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