Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 15:33:05 11/09/00
Go up one level in this thread
On November 09, 2000 at 15:20:24, Thorsten Czub wrote:
>here the evaluation of gambit-tiger during the game:[Event "60/60"]
>[Site "k6-400"]
>[Date "9/11/2000"]
>[Round "1-100"]
>[White "Gambit-Tiger1.0"]
>[Black "Crafty17.13"]
>[Result "1-0"]
>[Opening "B93 Sicilian: Najdorf, 6.f4"]
>
>{Engine book(s): ct.tbk }
>1.e4 { Score: 0,00 depth: 1 e4 } 1...c5 2.Nf3 { Score: 0,00 depth: 1 Nf3
>} 2...d6 3.d4 { Score: 0,00 depth: 1 d4 } 3...cxd4 4.Nxd4 { Score: 0,00
>depth:
>1 Nxd4 } 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 { Score: 0,00 depth: 1 Nc3 } 5...a6 6.f4 {
>Score: 0,00
>depth: 1 f4 } 6...e6 7.Qf3 { Score: 0,00 depth: 1 Qf3 } 7...Qb6
>8.a3 { Score:
>0,00 depth: 1 a3 } 8...Nc6 9.Nb3 { Score: 0,00 depth: 1 Nb3
>} 9...Qc7 10.g4 {
>Score: 0,00 depth: 1 g4 } 10...Be7 11.g5 { Score: 0,48
>depth: 12 g5 Nd7 Bg2
>Nc5 Be3 O-O O-O b5 Qf2 b4 Nxc5 dxc5 axb4 cxb4 } 11...Nd7
>12.Bg2 { Score: 0,36
>depth: 12 Bg2 b5 O-O O-O f5 Nde5 Qe2 Qb6+ Qf2 Qxf2+
>Rxf2 Bb7 f6 gxf6 gxf6 } 12...O-O 13.O-O { Score: 0,52 depth: 11 O-O b5 Be3
>Bb7 Qh5 Nb6 Nd2 Na5 Rab1
>g6 Qh6 } 13...Nc5 14.Be3 { Score: 0,64 depth: 12
>Be3 b5 f5 Ne5 Qe2 Nxb3 cxb3
>f6 Rac1 fxg5 Nxb5 Qd8 Nc7 } 14...Nxb3 15.cxb3 {
>Score: 0,70 depth: 9 cxb3 b5
>f5 Ne5 Qh5 g6 Qh3 Bb7 fxe6 } 15...f5 16.Bh3 {
>Score: 0,68 depth: 11 Bh3 fxe4
>Qxe4 Qd7 g6 hxg6 Qxg6 Rf6 Qg2 d5 f5 exf5
>Nxd5 } 16...fxe4 17.Qxe4 { Score: 0,24
> depth: 12 Qxe4 Qd7 Rad1 d5 Qg2 Qe8 b4
>Bd6 f5 d4 Bxd4 exf5 } 17...Qd7 18.Nd5 {
>Score: 0,32 depth: 11 Nd5 Bd8 Nb6
>Bxb6 Bxb6 Qe7 Rae1 e5 Bxc8 Raxc8 g6 hxg6
>fxe5 Rxf1+ Kxf1 Qxe5 } 18...Bd8 19.Nb6
>{ Score: 0,48 depth: 13 Nb6 Bxb6 Bxb6
>Qe7 Rad1 e5 Bxc8 Raxc8 Qd5+ Kh8 Qxd6
>exf4 Qxe7 Nxe7 Rd7 } 19...Bxb6 20.Bxb6 {
>Score: 0,61 depth: 13 Bxb6 Qe7 Bg2
>Bd7 Rac1 Rf7 Qd3 Raf8 Rfd1 e5 Qxd6 exf4
>Qxe7 Rxe7 } 20...d5 21.Qe3 { Score:
>0,87 depth: 12 Qe3 Qf7 Rae1 Re8 Bg4 Bd7
>Bc5 Rac8 b4 Rc7 Rf3 b5 } 21...Qf7
>22.Rae1 { Score: 0,88 depth: 13 Rae1 Re8 b4
>Bd7 b3 Rac8 Rf3 Qh5 Bc5 b5 Kg2
>Rc7 Bd6 } 22...Re8 23.b4 { Score: 0,86 depth:
>12 b4 g6 Bc5 Bd7 Rf3 b5 Bg4
>Qg7 Qd2 Qf7 Rc3 e5 Bxd7 Qxd7 fxe5 Rxe5 } 23...Bd7 24.Rf3 { Score: 0,82
>depth: 12 Rf3 Qh5 Bc5 Rad8 Qd3 Kh8 Kh1 Qh4 Qe2 e5 Bxd7
>Rxd7 fxe5 Nxe5 } 24...Rac8
>25.b3 { Score: 0,86 depth: 12 b3 g6 Bc5 b5 Bg2 Qg7
>Qc3 Qf7 Qf6 Qxf6 gxf6
>Kf7 Rh3 } 25...Rb8 26.Bg4 { Score: 0,86 depth: 13 Bg4
>Rbc8 Bc5 b5 Qd3 g6 Bd6
>a5 bxa5 Nxa5 Be5 Nc6 Bc3 Ra8 } 26...Rbc8 27.Re2 { Score:
>0,90 depth: 14 Re2
>g6 Re1 Qg7 Qd2 Qf8 Bc5 Qf7 Qe3 b5 Bh3 Rc7 Qe2 Rcc8 } 27...Nb8 28.Bd4 { Score:
>1,02 depth: 12 Bd4 Nc6 Bb2 Rc7 Rh3 Rf8 Qd3 Qg6 Qxg6
>hxg6 Rf3 Kf7 Bc3 }
>28...Nc6 29.Bb2 { Score: 1,00 depth: 12 Bb2 Rf8 Bxe6 Bxe6
>Qxe6 Qxe6 Rxe6
>Rce8 Rxe8 Rxe8 Kg2 Re2+ Rf2 Re3 Rf3 Rxf3 Kxf3 } 29...Nd8 30.Rh3 { Score: 1,20
> depth: 11 Rh3 Bb5 Rd2 Qg6 Qe1 Nf7 a4 Bd7 Qh4 b5 Bh5 } 30...Qg6 31.Re1 {
>Score: 1,34 depth: 11 Re1 Rf8 Bh5 Qf5 Rh4 Nf7 Bg4 Qc2 Bd4 e5 Bxd7
>exd4 Qxd4
>} 31...Nf7 32.Bd4 { Score: 1,30 depth: 12 Bd4 Red8 Bh5 Qf5 Rh4 Rc2
>g6 hxg6
>Bg4 Qe4 Qxe4 dxe4 Rxe4 } 32...Qc2 33.Qg3 { Score: 1,48 depth: 11 Qg3
>Rc7 Be2
>Bb5 Bh5 g6 Bg4 e5 fxe5 Nxg5 Rh6 } 33...Qd2 34.Be3 { Score: 1,50
>depth: 12
>Be3 Qd3 Qh4 Qg6 Bd4 Rf8 Bc5 Rfe8 Rd1 a5 Bh5 Qf5 Bxf7+ Kxf7 Qxh7
>Qxf4 } 34...Qc3
>35.Qh4 { Score: 1,74 depth: 11 Qh4 h6 Bc5 Rxc5 bxc5 Qxc5+ Kh1
>Qxa3 g6 Nd8
>b4 Qxb4 Bh5 } 35...h6 36.Bc5 { Score: 1,54 depth: 11 Bc5 Qd2 Bh5
>e5 Rhe3 d4
>Bxf7+ Kxf7 R3e2 Qd3 gxh6 Qg6+ Rg2 Qxh6 Qxh6 gxh6 fxe5 } 36...Qb2 37.gxh6 {
>Score: 2,22 depth: 11 gxh6 Nxh6 Bh5 Red8 Bg6 Qf6 Qxf6 gxf6 Bb6
>Ng4 Bxd8
>Rxd8 Rh7 } 37...Nxh6 38.Bh5 { Score: 2,60 depth: 12 Bh5 e5 Bxe8 Rxe8
>f5 Qc2
>Rf3 } 38...Red8 39.Kh1 { Score: 3,42 depth: 10 Kh1 Nf5 Qg5 Bc6 Bg6 Qf6
>Qh5
>Nh6 Rg3 Be8 }
OK... Here is a good point for discussion. My evaluation at this point
is somewhere between -.2 and -1.0, depending on how deep you let it
search. Here is the position:
[D]2rr2k1/1p1b2p1/p3p2n/2Bp3B/1P3P1Q/PP5R/1q5P/4R2K b
It is black to move. White has the rook and queen doubled on the h file.
Black has the h-file blocked with the knight on h6. White has no way to
drive the knight off, and no easy way to capture the knight with some sort
of trade. IE the h-file is not going to be used for an attack very easily.
Do you (or anybody) think that white is really up the equivalent of one
piece (+3.42) here?
Is black blind? Is white over-optimistic? Or is the truth somewhere in
between? BTW Nf5 doesn't seem to be the best move here. Why Crafty played
it I don't know. It finds it at 1 min on my quad, and then fails low within
another 45 seconds...
>39...Nf5 40.Qg5 { Score: 3,04 depth: 12 Qg5 Bc6 Bg6 Qf6
>Qxf6
>d4+ Kg1 gxf6 Rxe6 Ng7 Rxf6 Rc7 Rh7 } 40...Be8 41.Rxe6 { Score: 3,48
>depth:
>10 Rxe6 Qb1+ Bg1 Bxh5 Qxh5 Nh6 } 41...Qb1+ 42.Kg2 { Score: 3,02 depth:
>11
>Kg2 d4 Be2 Bb5 Qh5 Bxe2 Qh7+ Kf7 Re7+ Nxe7 Qxb1 d3 Re3 } 42...d4 43.Be2 {
>
>Score: 2,90 depth: 11 Be2 Bb5 Qh5 Bxe2 Qh7+ Kf7 Re7+ Nxe7 Qxb1 d3 Re3
>Nd5
>Re4 } 43...Bb5 44.Qh5 { Score: 2,12 depth: 12 Qh5 Bxe2 Qh7+ Kf7 Re7+
>Nxe7
>Qxb1 Rxc5 bxc5 d3 Kf2 Bg4 Rf3 Bxf3 Kxf3 d2 Qd1 } 44...Bxe2 45.Qh7+ {
>Score:
>0,34 depth: 12 Qh7+ Kf7 Re7+ Nxe7 Qxb1 Rxc5 bxc5 d3 Kf2 Bg4 Rxd3 Bf5
>Rxd8
>Bxb1 Rd7 } 45...Kf7 46.Re7+ { Score: 0,30 depth: 12 Re7+ Nxe7 Qxb1 Rxc5
>bxc5
>d3 Kf2 Bg4 Rxd3 Bf5 Rxd8 Bxb1 Rd7 Be4 } 46...Nxe7 47.Qxb1 { Score: 0,12
>
>depth: 14 Qxb1 Rxc5 bxc5 d3 Kf2 Bg4 Rxd3 Bf5 Rxd8 Bxb1 Rd7 Be4 b4 Ke8 Rd6 }
>47...Rxc5 48.bxc5 { Score: -0,10 depth: 14 bxc5 d3 Kf2 Bg4 Rxd3 Bf5
>Rxd8
My score for move 47 is -.33... it has very slowly climbed over the last
8 moves. I don't see how this game is a good example of what you call a
"new paradigm". It looks like the evaluation was inflated, GT slowly
found that it couldn't hold that position with the somewhat inflated score,
and the score settled back down closer to what Crafty was saying.
>Bxb1 b4 Bf5 Ke3 Nc6 Rd6 Ke7 } 48...d3 49.Kf2 { Score: 0,60 depth: 14
>Kf2 Bg4
>Rxd3 Bf5 Rxd8 Bxb1 b4 Bf5 Ke3 Nc6 Rd6 Ke7 Rd2 Ke6 } 49...Bg4 50.Rxd3 {
>Score:
>0,64 depth: 12 Rxd3 Bf5 Rxd8 Bxb1 b4 Ba2 Rd7 Bd5 Ke2 Ke6 Rd6+ Kf5
>Rd7 } 50...Bf5 51.Rxd8 { Score: 0,40 depth: 15 Rxd8 Bxb1 Kf3 Ba2 b4 Bd5+ Kg4
>Kf6
>Rf8+ Bf7 Kf3 Ke6 h3 Nd5 f5+ Ke7 Rb8 } 51...Bxb1 52.Kf3 { Score: 0,08
>depth:
>13 Kf3 Ba2 b4 Bd5+ Kg4 Be4 Kg5 Nf5 h4 Ke7 Rg8 Ke6 Re8+ Ne7 h5 } 52...Bc2
>53.b4 { Score: 0,16 depth: 13 b4 Bb3 h4 Bd5+ Kg4 Bc6 Kg5 Nd5 Rc8 Ke6 f5+
>Kf7 Rb8
>Ke7 Rg8 } 53...Ba4 54.Kg4 { Score: 0,20 depth: 13 Kg4 Bb5 Kg5 Bc6 h4
>Nd5 Rb8
>Ne3 Rc8 Nd5 } 54...Bc6 55.Kg5 { Score: 0,18 depth: 13 Kg5 Be4 h4 Nf5
>Rb8 Nd4
>f5 Nf3+ Kf4 Bc6 h5 Kf6 Rf8+ Ke7 Rg8 } 55...Nd5 56.f5 { Score: 0,18
>depth: 12
>f5 Nc3 Rc8 Nb5 h4 Nxa3 Rc7+ Kg8 f6 gxf6+ Kg6 Be4+ Kxf6 Nc2 Rg7+ Kh8
>} 56...Ke7 57.Rc8 { Score: 0,24 depth: 13 Rc8 Kf7 h4 Ne7 Rb8 Nd5 h5 Nc3 Rc8
>Ne4+ Kf4
>Nd2 Rc7+ Kf6 h6 gxh6 } 57...Kf7 58.h4 { Score: 0,16 depth: 14 h4
>Nc3 h5 Ne4+
>Kf4 } 58...Nf6 59.Rb8 { Score: 0,18 depth: 12 Rb8 Ne4+ Kf4 Ke7
>Rg8 Kf7 Rc8
>Nd2 h5 Nc4 a4 Kf6 Rf8+ Ke7 } 59...Ne4+ 60.Kf4 { Score: 0,18
>depth: 14 Kf4 Nf6
>Rd8 Bd7 Ke5 Ke7 Ra8 Bc6 Kf4 Kf7 Rb8 Ke7 Kg5 Be4 } 60...Nf6
>61.Rd8 { Score: 0,12
> depth: 14 Rd8 Nd7 Kg5 Ne5 h5 Nc4 Rc8 Nxa3 Rc7+ Kg8 f6
>} 61...Bd7 62.Ke5 {
>Score: 0,18 depth: 13 Ke5 Ke7 Ra8 Bb5 Kf4 Kf7 Rh8 Ng8
>Ke5 Ne7 Rh5 Nc6+ Kd6
>} 62...Ke7 63.Ra8 { Score: 0,20 depth: 14 Ra8 Bc6 Kf4
>Bd5 Rb8 Bc6 Rc8 Nd7 Kg5
>Ne5 h5 Kd7 Rg8 Nf3+ Kg6 } 63...Bc6 64.Kf4 { Score:
>0,14 depth: 14 Kf4 Kf7 Rb8
>Nd7 Rh8 a5 h5 axb4 axb4 Nf6 h6 Nd5+ Ke5 gxh6
>Rxh6 Nxb4 Rh7+ Ke8 } 64...Kf7 65.Rb8 { Score: 0,12 depth: 13 Rb8 Nd7 Rd8 a5
>Kg5 axb4 axb4 Nf6 Rb8 Bd5 h5
>Ne4+ Kf4 Kf6 Rf8+ Ke7 } 65...Ke7 66.Kg5 { Score:
>0,24 depth: 14 Kg5 Kf7 Rc8
>Ne4+ Kf4 Nf6 Rc7+ Ke8 Ke5 Kf8 Kd4 Be4 Rc8+ Ke7
>Ke5 Kd7 Rb8 } 66...Kf7 67.Rc8 {
>Score: 0,24 depth: 14 Rc8 Ne4+ Kf4 Nd2 Rc7+
>Kf6 a4 Nb3 Ke3 Bd5 a5 Bc6 h5
>Nc1 Kd4 Ne2+ Ke3 } 67...Ne4+ 68.Kf4 { Score: 0,24
> depth: 14 Kf4 Nf6 Rc7+ Kf8
>Kg5 Kg8 Re7 Kf8 Re6 Bd5 Rb6 Kf7 h5 Bc6 a4 }
>68...Nf6 69.Rc7+ { Score: 0,10
>depth: 15 Rc7+ Kf8 Ke5 Nd5 Rc8+ Kf7 Rd8 Ne3
>Rd3 Ng4+ Kf4 Nf6 Rd6 Nd5+ Kg5 Ne3
>Rd3 Nc4 Rg3 } 69...Kf8 70.Ke5 { Score: 0,24
> depth: 14 Ke5 Nd5 Rc8+ Ke7 Rg8
>Kf7 Rd8 Ne3 Rd3 Ng2 h5 Nh4 Rd6 Nf3+ Kf4 }
>70...Ne8 71.Rxc6 { Score: 0,96
Prior to this point, I would have expected a draw. two pieces for a rook
is generally an advantage. I would not expect to lose such a position very
often since the two pieces are generally much stronger. This "bad trade"
score has been influencing the scores crafty produces for quite a while in
the game. It is one of those 'speculative' type scores that just happens to
be wrong here, but it is right far more often than it is wrong.
>depth: 17 Rxc6 bxc6 Ke6 Nf6 Kd6 Ne4+ Kxc6
>Ke7 a4 Ng3 b5 axb5 axb5 Nxf5 b6 Kd8
>h5 Kc8 Kd5 } 71...bxc6 72.Ke6 { Score:
>1,74 depth: 17 Ke6 Nf6 Kd6 Ne4+ Kxc6
>Ke7 a4 Ng3 b5 axb5 axb5 Kd8 b6 Kc8 f6
>gxf6 Kb5 Nf5 h5 } 72...Nf6 73.Kd6 {
>Score: 2,42 depth: 16 Kd6 Ne4+ Kxc6 Ke7
>Kb7 Kd8 c6 Nd6+ Kxa6 Kc7 b5 Nc4 a4
>Nd6 h5 Nxf5 Ka7 Ng3 } 73...Ke8 74.Kxc6 {
>Score: 2,92 depth: 16 Kxc6 Ne4 Kb7
>Kd8 h5 Kd7 c6+ Ke7 c7 Nd6+ Kb8 Kf6 c8Q
>Nxc8 Kxc8 Kxf5 Kb7 g5 hxg6ep } 74...Kd8 75.Kb7 { Score: 4,28 depth: 16 Kb7
>Ne4 c6 Nd6+ Kb8 Nb5 h5 Ke7 c7 Nd6 c8N+ } 75...Ne4 76.c6 { Score: 8,52 depth:
>16 c6 Nd6+ Kb8 Nb5 a4 Nc7 h5 Nd5 b5 Ne7
>h6 gxh6 c7+ Kd7 f6 axb5 fxe7 bxa4
>c8Q+ Kxe7 } 76...Ke7 77.Kb8 { Score: 10,12
>depth: 17 Kb8 Nd6 c7 Kd7 h5 Ke7
>a4 Kf6 b5 axb5 axb5 Kxf5 b6 Kg4 b7 Kxh5 c8Q
>Nxc8 bxc8Q g5 } 77...Kf6 78.c7 {
>Score: 12,02 depth: 14 c7 Nd6 c8Q Nxc8 Kxc8
>Kxf5 Kb7 Ke6 Kxa6 Kd5 b5 Kc4 b6
>Kb3 b7 Kxa3 Kb5 } 78...Nd6 79.c8Q { Score:
>12,80 depth: 15 c8Q } 79...Nxc8
>80.Kxc8 { Score: 15,87 depth: 17 Kxc8 Kxf5
>Kb7 Kg4 Kxa6 Kxh4 b5 g5 b6 g4
>b7 g3 b8Q Kh3 Qc8+ Kh4 Qg8 Kh3 a4 } 80...Kxf5 81.Kb7 { Score: 16,95 depth:
>18 Kb7 Kg4 Kxa6 Kxh4 b5 g5 b6 g4 b7 g3 b8Q Kh3
>Qh8+ Kg2 a4 Kf2 Qd4+ Kf3 Qc3+
>Kg4 } 81...Kf6 82.Kxa6 { Score: 18,02 dept
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