Author: Bruce Moreland
Date: 10:26:31 11/14/00
Go up one level in this thread
On November 14, 2000 at 13:06:52, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>On November 14, 2000 at 13:01:29, Bruce Moreland wrote:
>
>>On November 14, 2000 at 12:03:24, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On November 14, 2000 at 11:39:23, Djordje Vidanovic wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 14, 2000 at 10:09:28, Kees van Iersel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I only want to show that computers can still loose games to persons who are
>>>>>much weaker. The difference is 761.
>>>>>How would kramnik perfome against a person with so much difference.
>>>>>Secondly if a computer would win everything who would be interested in seeing
>>>>>human versus machine games.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>[Event "ICC 3 3"]
>>>>>[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
>>>>>[Date "2000.11.13"]
>>>>>[Round "-"]
>>>>>[White "WICKER-MAN"]
>>>>>[Black "Rebel Tiger 13.0"]
>>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>>[ICCResult "Black checkmated"]
>>>>>[WhiteElo "1884"]
>>>>>[BlackElo "2645"]
>>>>>[Opening "Sicilian: Taimanov variation"]
>>>>>[ECO "B46"]
>>>>>[NIC "SI.39"]
>>>>>[Time "23:21:26"]
>>>>>[TimeControl "180+3"]
>>>>>
>>>>>1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bc4 Qc7 7. Bb3 b5 8.
>>>>>a3 Nf6 9. O-O Nxd4 10. Qxd4 Bd6 11. h3 Bh2+ 12. Kh1 Be5 13. Qe3 Bxc3 14.
>>>>>bxc3 Bb7 15. f3 O-O 16. a4 d5 17. e5 Nd7 18. f4 bxa4 19. Rxa4 Bc6 20. Ra1
>>>>>Bb5 21. Rf3 a5 22. Ba3 Rfc8 23. Bd6 Qb7 24. f5 a4 25. Ba2 Bc4 26. Bxc4 Rxc4
>>>>>27. f6 Qb2 28. Qg5 Qxa1+ 29. Kh2 Qh1+ 30. Kxh1 Nxf6 31. exf6 Rg4 32. hxg4 g6
>>>>>33. Qh6 a3 34. Qg7# {Black checkmated} 1-0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hmm... yet another game that confirms Bob's hypothesis about the best programs
>>>>not yet being strong enough to challenge GM's. I had a strong feeling of deja
>>>>vu after going through it. It looked just like the many games I won against
>>>>the Super Conny, Mach III, Designer 2265, Rex Chess, Genius, Fritz, etc...
>>>>
>>>>Don't get me wrong -- I did lose the bulk of those, but the occasional win or
>>>>two, resembling the one above, would always bring back a dose of healthy
>>>>skepticism regarding my initial enthusiasm and estimates of the programs:)
>>>>
>>>>*** Djordje
>>>
>>>
>>>Another point. It is highly likely that the opponent used a computer here. I
>>>base this on a couple of things. Near the end, there is a deep mate. He played
>>>it _perfectly_. Which I don't think an 1800 player could do. If I were
>>>betting, I would bet that white is a computer.
>>
>>Bob, you need to look at the game a little bit, I think. It was a normal
>>anti-computer attack, and anyone could have played the game perfectly from move
>>26 on. This was a 3 3 and white wa a human. He lost the other 7 games.
>
>My problem hits two ideas: 1. No tactical mistakes for 20 consecutive
>moves; 2. he finds a mate in 7, and follows it perfectly for the next
>7 moves. In blitz. It _could_ be a good human. But my intuition says
>"computer" was involved.
Look at the game, he plays like a human.
Moves 1-15 are a sit-and-wait Sicilian. If anything he's getting chased around
a little. His playing really solid in order to avoid having to deal with wild
tactics, but he let black crack his pawns.
16. a4 is the first enterprising move of the game, unless you count 1. e4.
16. ... d5 17. e5 is required unless you want to open the game up for the black
pieces, and it's an anti-computer move because it allows him to think about
bisecting the board.
17. ... Nd7 18. f4 is necessary to protect the pawn unless you want to play Re1,
and f4 also continues with the idea of bisecting the board.
18. ... bxa4 19. Rxa4 Bc6 20. Ra1. Maybe he could have put it on d4, which
might let him think about swinging it faster, but I'm proabably stupid. You
certainly can't claim that a computer picked 20. Ra1.
20. ... Bb5 21. Rf3. Where else does it go? e1? d1? A human is thinking g3
eventually.
21. ... a5 22. Ba3. Gotta put the bishop somewhere. He can't do f5 immediately
or he loses e5. The QR isn't going someplace wonderful yet. The KR is on an OK
square. So Ba3 seems obvious from a human point of view.
22. ... Rfc8 23. Bd6. You can't claim this is a computer move. Put the bishop
on a good square, annoy the queen.
23. ... Qb7 24. f5. Everything is solid, why not? He wants to play f6. This
is thematic with the moves e5 and f4.
24. ... a4 25. Ba2. Where else?
25. ... Bc4 26. Bxc4. Black threatened to win a rook after an exchange, and
white gets to get rid of a piece that he's not going to use.
26. ... Rc4 27. f6. White has nothing to lose, and it's obviously time for
this. Maybe black can find an improvement in the past few moves, but that's not
white's problem, white
The rest of the game isn't worth commenting on. Any player who has seen the Q+P
mate on g7 could find the rest.
bruce
>It is only intuition of course... and it can definitely be wrong. I merely
>raised the spectre. I would want to see more games myself, before I would be
>willing to say positively...
>
>
>
>>
>>>If I were to criticize moves, I would pick the following moves for black as
>>>suspect (from a human perspective): 11. ... Bh2+ seems totally pointless.
>>>23. ... Qb7 seems to be worse than pointless. This is a queen, not a bishop.
>>>I also don't like 24. ... a4. Advancing passers is often good, but the further
>>>they advance, the easier they are to attack and the harder they are to defend.
>>>White is attacking on the kingside. Black really doesn't need to waste time
>>>on the queenside just yet, when he has no pieces for defending the kingside.
>>
>>I haven't looked at it with a computer, but at the point white plays 24. f4,
>>he's out for blood, and the problem black has is avoiding getting mated on g7.
>>It looks like it's pretty hard to stop.
>>
>>>However, on the other hand, Tiger was playing a computer in human clothing.
>>>Nothing good can come of that, and drawing conclusions is harder. I would
>>>_never_ believe than an 1800 player can beat today's programs. yes, it might
>>>happen once in every 1000 games. But that is close enough to zero to instantly
>>>turn on warning lights when I see it. In this case, if you analyze the game
>>>with another program (I used Crafty) it couldn't find any improvement for white
>>>from move 18 on. Which is _very_ suspicious...
>>
>>White's moves are all either forced or typical human moves.
>>
>>bruce
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