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Subject: Re: This guy is not a cheater

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 06:10:04 11/15/00

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On November 14, 2000 at 18:43:56, Bruce Moreland wrote:

>On November 14, 2000 at 17:27:20, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On November 14, 2000 at 15:07:37, Côme wrote:
>>
>>>On November 14, 2000 at 14:18:08, Alvaro Rodriguez wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 14, 2000 at 13:11:02, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 14, 2000 at 13:00:53, Alvaro Rodriguez wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On November 14, 2000 at 12:54:00, Mogens Larsen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On November 14, 2000 at 12:18:05, Peter Skinner wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>After move 18 there is _no_ improvement. I have no doubts about wicker-man being
>>>>>>>>a computer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Being rated on ICC at 1800 is like being rated about 1400-1500 on FICS. There is
>>>>>>>>almost no possible way for that type player to beat todays programs. I would
>>>>>>>>inform speedtrap of his actions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That's a very speculative foundation for reporting another player. If he did the
>>>>>>>same against human opposition, his rating probably wouldn't be as low as it is.
>>>>>>>Besides, what's the big deal in cheating on a computer program.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Mogens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It´s a big deal because the program expects to play a human opponent and when
>>>>>>the person who is running the (C)(in this case Rebel Tiger) analyzes the games
>>>>>>played against humans, he will analyze this game too and import it to a database
>>>>>>with all human opponents. So, he will get wrong results.. Allthough, it´s just
>>>>>>one game but if everybody cheats, then the results against humans will be
>>>>>>completly worthless. IMO
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Alvaro
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>If you play 1800-level players on ICC, FICS or chess.net, this is just a fact
>>>>>of life.  You _are_ going to play computer cheaters.  There are far more
>>>>>cheaters at the lower ratings (there are also far more players down there too,
>>>>>of course).
>>>>>
>>>>>It is a huge problem...
>>>>
>>>>I played in zone some months ago, and the computer cheaters there where all
>>>>rated above 2100+, which was a high rating then, probably in the top 100 on the
>>>>site. I don´t understand how the computer cheaters can be rated 1800 on ICC,
>>>>that´s low for a program ! Do they play advanced chess or do they play every
>>>>move suggested by the program ? I´m confused.
>>>>
>>>>Alvaro
>>>
>>>Hello !
>>>You are right Alvaro 1800 players don't use computers if they use computer
>>>they will have a higher rating for sure.
>>>Best Regards
>>>Alexandre Côme
>>
>>
>>(a) you are assuming they cheat in every game.  This is rarely so;
>>
>>(b) you are assuming they use the computer for every move.  This is also
>>not always the case.
>>
>>simple cheaters get caught quickly.  The ones that are more selective in
>>their cheating take much longer to catch.  But they definitely do exist.
>
>The guy who played this game is taking a lot of hell (by implication) for
>nothing, and almost all of it is from you.

Way too much hyperbole in that statement.  He isn't getting any "hell" from
me at all.  I said that the game looks suspicious.  I _still_ feel that it
does.  I also said that more games were needed to be sure.  I _still_ feel
that way as well.


>
>There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that indicates the person who played that
>game used any kind of outside assistance, or cheated in any way.

An opinion, just like mine.  Either (or neither) could be correct.  When I
"annotate" a game electronically, and find no mistakes, it tickles my
"interesting" filter.  The mate in 7 was actually non-important.  I didn't
look at the position down there, and didn't notice that it was a trivial
set of spite-checks prior to losing.  But the overall game might (or might not)
have computer assistance.

I raised the idea due to the original premise that "Tiger gets smashed by an
1800 player".  It could be a poor evaluation in that game.  Or it could be
that the human didn't make any mistakes for a reason.  Both are speculation,
only.



>
>It was a perfectly nice anti-computer game, jeez.  It there is going to be a
>thread about people cheating with computers, it should probably be a different
>thread.  This one should be about how computers sometimes get mated by
>A-players.
>
>bruce



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