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Subject: Re: New version of EXchess

Author: Aaron Tay

Date: 02:04:05 11/19/00

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On November 19, 2000 at 03:05:19, pavel wrote:

>On November 19, 2000 at 02:49:49, Aaron Tay wrote:
>
>>On November 19, 2000 at 01:47:13, pavel wrote:
>>
>>>On November 18, 2000 at 23:40:08, Dan Homan wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 18, 2000 at 23:23:27, Brian Richardson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 18, 2000 at 23:06:36, Dan Homan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I've just put a new version of EXchess up on my website:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://pc.astro.brandeis.edu/BRAG/people/dch/chess.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The new version (v4.01) adds Temporal Difference evaluation learning to the
>>>>>>previous version (v3.14).  I am not sure that this really increases the strength
>>>>>>of the program, but it was fun to work on.  There are a couple of other minor
>>>>>>enhancements to the search and opening book code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Dan
>>>>>
>>>>>About how many games with TD learning have been played and did it change your
>>>>>evaluation function much?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I've played hundreds of games, but I've also reset the learned values back to
>>>>the original parameters many times as well.  For the parameters which come with
>>>>the released version, I am not sure how many games contribute.  Another wrinkle
>>>>is that the program only 'learns' after a loss, so the number of 'learning
>>>>games' is smaller than the number of games played.
>>>>
>>>>One consistent result is that TD learning wants a smaller value for passed
>>>>pawns than I was using before (about 75% of my original 'hand-tuned' value).
>>>>Also my knight-outpost and bishop-outpost values are consistently increased
>>>>by the TD learning by a factor of 3 or 4.
>>>>
>>>> - Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>can you elavorate TD learning?
>>>as far as I know, it fixes value after each game.
>>>
>>>is there any file generated by the program as a .lrn file, which increases after
>>>game?
>>>or the eval is tuned externally?
>>>
>>>
>>>pavs
>>
>>There is a score.par file that changes after each loss. But I don't see anyway
>>to combine learning from other sources much like you can import learning from
>>other sources for crafty's book..
>>
>>Is there a way? Otherwise if each new version of EXchess came with a new
>>score.par file , does that mean the learning each user has will be tossed out?
>>
>>I'm also curious about how Exchess decides what to tune after each loss. How
>>does it "know" what evalution scores to change?
>>
>>I will run 100 blitz games first vers various strong opponents (to maximise
>>losses..:( !! ) and see how the score.par changes. Currently, i see the passed
>>pawn value dropping quite significantly and knight outpost values increasing
>>inline with what the author found..
>
>
>also one more thing I noticed in the webpage, it's a brute force proram.
>no selective search?

LOL becuase of this statement on the website?

"
 Brute force searches to 60 ply (1 ply = a move by one side).

 Recursive null move pruning. "


You don't really think Exchess routinely does brute force to 60 ply do you?
I think that's just a maximum ply..

Besides the web site talks about "recursive null move pruning"..Even someone
like me know that once you see the word " pruning" and probably null move , we
can't be talking about pure brute force..So my guess is yes, Exchess does have
"selective search"...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this "selective search" vers "Brute force" is not a
major issue these days.. No modern day programs are 100% brute force these
days..Every program does "selective search"...

Of course how selective the search should be and how much risk each program
takes in pruning each line is a matter of taste..

I;m just waiting for someone else to say old paradigm= brute force and new
paradigm = selective search or as someone already done that?

I think if people are going to walk around and throw around terms like
"Selective search" , "brute force" , " New paradigm" they do well to read up on
it first..






>
>also it seems if the program uses losses to tune it;s eval, then it can be
>misinterpreted.
>for instance, result from a game that was played in 5 min/game, will have lesser
>values of importance then a game that was played at 40/40 or 40/60.
>
>
>so it can be interpreted that an exchess version that plays only 5min blitz will
>have one kind of tuned eval, while the other one that plays mainly 40/40 will
>differant. Which one is  best? :)
>
>this are mainly assumption, as I need to know (more clearly) what TD learning
>is.
>
>
>thanks
>pavs.



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