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Subject: Re: Possible computer cheater? Or just very lucky in two games?

Author: Günther Simon

Date: 14:33:01 11/20/00

Go up one level in this thread


On November 20, 2000 at 13:37:19, Andrew Dados wrote:

>On November 20, 2000 at 09:51:16, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On November 20, 2000 at 08:51:22, Peter Skinner wrote:
>>
>>>Here is the person's history on FICS, and as you can see, he is NOT a very
>>>strong player:
>>>
>>>                  Opponent      Type         ECO End Date
>>>48: - 1515 W 1859 Jasiaaa       [ br  8   0] D00 Res Sun Nov 19, 09:29 CST 2000
>>>49: - 1511 B 1715 nyknick       [ br  2  12] C00 Res Sun Nov 19, 10:23 CST 2000
>>>50: + 1520 W 1529 objna         [ br  5  10] A40 Fla Sun Nov 19, 20:10 CST 2000
>>>51: - 1514 B 1642 Thorax        [ br  2   4] C00 Res Sun Nov 19, 21:17 CST 2000
>>>52: - 1506 W 1509 NinthPawn     [ br  2  12] A43 Res Sun Nov 19, 21:27 CST 2000
>>>53: - 1546 B    0 BOOOO         [ lu  1   0] A13 Fla Sun Nov 19, 21:34 CST 2000
>>>54: - 2035 W 2525 LilKikr       [ sr 15   1] D00 Res Mon Nov 20, 03:50 CST 2000
>>>55: = 2114 B 2518 LilKikr       [ sr 15   1] A77 Rep Mon Nov 20, 04:18 CST 2000
>>>56: + 2264 W 2504 LilKikr       [ sr 15   1] D18 Mat Mon Nov 20, 04:56 CST 2000
>>>57: + 2305 W 2108 NotSoCrafty   [ sr 15   0] E10 Fla Mon Nov 20, 05:20 CST 2000
>>>
>>>Now notice that he was unable to beat another 1500 blitz player in a 2 12 game,
>>>which might as well be a "standard" game over ICS as it can last forever, yet
>>>was able to record a 2-1-1 record vs computers....
>>>
>>>Here are the games, even the one my computer won...
>>>
>>>[Event ""]
>>>[Site ""]
>>>[Date "2000.11.20"]
>>>[Round ""]
>>>[White "???"]
>>>[Black "LilKikr"]
>>>[Result "0-1"]
>>>[WhiteElo "2047"]
>>>[BlackElo "2524"]
>>>[Opening "D00 Queen's Pawn: Stonewall Attack"]
>>>
>>>{Time control = 15 1 Engine book(s): ct.tbk }
>>>1.d4 d5 2.e3 Nf6 3.Bd3 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.f4 Bg4 6.Nf3 e6 7.Nbd2 Qc7 8.h3 Bh5 9.O-O
>>>Bd6 10.b3 cxd4
>>>11.cxd4 O-O 12.g4 Nb4 13.Bxh7+ Nxh7 14.gxh5 Qc3 15.Ba3 Qxe3+ 16.Kh1 Qxf4 17.Qe2
>>>Nf6 {
>>>jkoss resigns} 0-1
>>>
>>>[Event ""]
>>>[Site ""]
>>>[Date "2000.11.20"]
>>>[Round ""]
>>>[White "LilKikr"]
>>>[Black "???"]
>>>[Result "1/2-1/2"]
>>>[WhiteElo "2525"]
>>>[BlackElo "2035"]
>>>[Opening "A77 Benoni: Classical, 9...Re8, 10.Nd2"]
>>>
>>>{Time control = 15 1 Engine book(s): ct.tbk }
>>>1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 g6 6.e4 d6 7.Nf3 Bg7 8.Be2 O-O 9.O-O
>>>Re8 10.Nd2
>>>a6 11.a4 b6 12.f3 Nbd7 13.Nc4 Ne5 14.Nxe5 Rxe5 15.Bc4 Nd7 16.Bf4 Re8 17.Qd2 Ne5
>>>18.Bb3 Qh4
>>>19.Ne2 h6 20.Bg3 Qh5 21.Be1 Nd7 22.Qc2 Bb7 23.Bc3 Re7 24.Bxg7 Kxg7 25.Nf4 Qg5
>>>26.g3 Ne5
>>>27.Qc3 b5 28.axb5 axb5 29.Rxa8 b4 30.Qe3 Bxa8 31.Ra1 Bb7 32.Ra7 Qf6 33.Kg2 Kh7
>>>34.Qe2 c4
>>>35.Ba4 Bc8 36.Ra8 Rc7 37.Bc2 Qh8 38.Ra1 b3 39.Bd1 g5 40.Nh5 Nd3 41.e5 Nxe5
>>>42.Rc1 Kg6 43.g4
>>>f5 44.h3 Rc5 45.Ra1 Rxd5 46.Ra7 Bd7 47.f4 fxg4 48.Rxd7 gxh3+ 49.Kxh3 Rd3+ 50.Kg2
>>>Qa8+ 51.Kf2
>>>Qh1 52.Rg7+ Kf5 53.fxe5 Qh2+ 54.Kf1 Qh1+ 55.Kf2 Qh2+ 56.Kf1 Qh1+ 57.Kf2 { Game
>>>drawn by
>>>repetition} 1/2-1/2
>>>
>>>[Event ""]
>>>[Site ""]
>>>[Date "2000.11.20"]
>>>[Round ""]
>>>[White "???"]
>>>[Black "LilKikr"]
>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>[WhiteElo "2114"]
>>>[BlackElo "2518"]
>>>[Opening "D19 QGD Slav: Dutch Variation"]
>>>
>>>{Time control = 15 1 Engine book(s): ct.tbk }
>>>1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.e3 e6 7.Bxc4 Bb4 8.O-O Nbd7
>>>9.Qe2 Bg6 10.Bd2
>>>O-O 11.Ne4 Bxd2 12.Nexd2 Qc7 13.Rac1 Bh5 14.b4 e5 15.dxe5 Nxe5 16.Rfd1 Rad8
>>>17.h3 Nxc4
>>>18.Qxc4 Rd6 19.g4 Bg6 20.Nb3 Rxd1+ 21.Rxd1 Be4 22.Nfd4 Bd5 23.Qc2 Ne4 24.Nf5 Rc8
>>>25.Nbd4
>>>Ng5 26.f4 Nxh3+ 27.Kh2 Ng5 28.Nb5 cxb5 29.Qxc7 Rxc7 30.fxg5 Rd7 31.Rxd5 Rxd5
>>>32.Ne7+ Kf8
>>>33.Nxd5 bxa4 34.Kg3 a3 35.Nc3 f6 36.gxf6 gxf6 37.Kf4 Kf7 38.b5 Kg6 39.Na2 h6
>>>40.Nb4 a6 41.b6
>>>Kf7 42.Kf5 a5 43.Na2 Ke7 44.Kg6 Kd6 45.Kxf6 Kd5 46.Nc1 Kc4 47.Ke5 Kc3 48.Kd5 a4
>>>49.Kc5 Kd2
>>>50.Na2 Kc2 51.Nb4+ Kb2 52.Kb5 Kc3 53.Kxa4 Kc4 54.Kxa3 Kc5 55.Kb3 Kxb6 56.Nd5+
>>>Kc5 57.Ne7
>>>Kd6 58.Nf5+ Ke5 59.Nxh6 Kf6 60.e4 Kg5 61.e5 Kxh6 62.e6 Kg7 63.g5 Kf8 64.g6 Ke7
>>>65.g7 Kxe6
>>>66.g8Q+ Kd6 67.Qc4 b5 68.Qxb5 Ke6 69.Kc4 Kf6 70.Kd4 Ke6 71.Qc5 Kf6 72.Ke4 Ke6
>>>73.Qc6+ Kf7
>>>74.Ke5 Kg7 75.Kf5 Kf7 76.Qd7+ Kf8 77.Kf6 Kg8 78.Qg7# { LilKikr checkmated} 1-0
>>>
>>>I am blocking out his name, as I am not totally sure, but I doubt that I am
>>>wrong in the fact this "person" cheated. He is also a former admin of FICS, so
>>>it is actually very doubtful they will do anything to him if proven to be
>>>guilty. By his history, you can tell he is a weak player, yet it rated 800
>>>points higher in standard games, but is not established. His previous best in
>>>standard was 1905.. but has not been at that level since 1998.
>>>
>>>What do you think?
>>>
>>>Btw, Lilikr(C) is a Rebel Tiger II on a PIII 500 using 96m hash tables, and
>>>regular book. In the draw, and loss, my Tiger was really never ahead..
>>
>>
>>
>>The history looks suspect.  It would really help if you could post the games
>>with the time per move included.  That is a good clue.  Then annotating the
>>games with a computer program can provide even more convincing information.
>
>
>
>Just 2 games dumped with 'smoves' command...
>Time usage looks typical for manually operated computer program.
>
>(????) (2114) vs. LilKikr (2518) --- Mon Nov 20, 06:26 ??? 2000
>Rated standard match, initial time: 15 minutes, increment: 1 seconds.
>
>Move  (????)              LilKikr
>----  ----------------   ----------------
>  1.  d4      (0:12)     d5      (0:00)
>  2.  c4      (0:08)     c6      (0:00)
>  3.  Nf3     (0:03)     Nf6     (0:00)
>  4.  Nc3     (0:04)     dxc4    (0:00)
>  5.  a4      (0:04)     Bf5     (0:00)
>  6.  e3      (0:05)     e6      (0:00)
>  7.  Bxc4    (0:04)     Bb4     (0:00)
>  8.  O-O     (0:36)     Nbd7    (0:00)
>  9.  Qe2     (0:06)     Bg6     (0:00)
> 10.  Bd2     (0:20)     O-O     (0:00)
> 11.  Ne4     (0:13)     Bxd2    (0:25)
> 12.  Nexd2   (0:10)     Qc7     (0:06)
> 13.  Rac1    (0:08)     Bh5     (0:16)
> 14.  b4      (0:10)     e5      (0:14)
> 15.  dxe5    (0:06)     Nxe5    (0:24)
> 16.  Rfd1    (0:10)     Rad8    (0:16)
> 17.  h3      (0:10)     Nxc4    (0:13)
> 18.  Qxc4    (0:07)     Rd6     (0:41)
> 19.  g4      (0:08)     Bg6     (0:17)
> 20.  Nb3     (0:10)     Rxd1+   (0:17)
> 21.  Rxd1    (0:04)     Be4     (0:19)
> 22.  Nfd4    (0:13)     Bd5     (0:16)
> 23.  Qc2     (0:25)     Ne4     (0:15)
> 24.  Nf5     (0:20)     Rc8     (0:22)
> 25.  Nbd4    (0:12)     Ng5     (0:05)
> 26.  f4      (0:19)     Nxh3+   (0:15)
> 27.  Kh2     (0:06)     Ng5     (0:23)
> 28.  Nb5     (1:08)     cxb5    (0:14)
> 29.  Qxc7    (0:07)     Rxc7    (0:17)
> 30.  fxg5    (0:08)     Rd7     (0:23)
> 31.  Rxd5    (0:11)     Rxd5    (0:48)
> 32.  Ne7+    (0:02)     Kf8     (0:28)
> 33.  Nxd5    (0:00)     bxa4    (0:03)
> 34.  Kg3     (0:21)     a3      (0:00)
> 35.  Nc3     (0:07)     f6      (1:05)
> 36.  gxf6    (0:07)     gxf6    (0:07)
> 37.  Kf4     (0:12)     Kf7     (0:10)
> 38.  b5      (0:15)     Kg6     (0:17)
> 39.  Na2     (0:11)     h6      (0:19)
> 40.  Nb4     (1:24)     a6      (0:00)
> 41.  b6      (1:12)     Kf7     (0:00)
> 42.  Kf5     (0:14)     a5      (0:16)
> 43.  Na2     (0:10)     Ke7     (1:00)
> 44.  Kg6     (0:15)     Kd6     (0:00)
> 45.  Kxf6    (0:12)     Kd5     (0:10)
> 46.  Nc1     (1:24)     Kc4     (0:19)
> 47.  Ke5     (0:26)     Kc3     (0:38)
> 48.  Kd5     (0:15)     a4      (0:00)
> 49.  Kc5     (0:24)     Kd2     (0:00)
> 50.  Na2     (0:13)     Kc2     (0:00)
> 51.  Nb4+    (0:15)     Kb2     (0:07)
> 52.  Kb5     (0:12)     Kc3     (0:23)
> 53.  Kxa4    (0:10)     Kc4     (0:00)
> 54.  Kxa3    (0:06)     Kc5     (0:17)
> 55.  Kb3     (0:09)     Kxb6    (0:10)
> 56.  Nd5+    (0:10)     Kc5     (0:00)
> 57.  Ne7     (0:10)     Kd6     (0:00)
> 58.  Nf5+    (0:02)     Ke5     (0:04)
> 59.  Nxh6    (0:01)     Kf6     (0:11)
> 60.  e4      (0:08)     Kg5     (0:08)
> 61.  e5      (0:03)     Kxh6    (0:08)
> 62.  e6      (0:03)     Kg7     (0:11)
> 63.  g5      (0:02)     Kf8     (0:05)
> 64.  g6      (0:02)     Ke7     (0:07)
> 65.  g7      (0:01)     Kxe6    (0:04)
> 66.  g8=Q+   (0:01)     Kd6     (0:04)
> 67.  Qc4     (0:02)     b5      (0:05)
> 68.  Qxb5    (0:02)     Ke6     (0:02)
> 69.  Kc4     (0:01)     Kf6     (0:05)
> 70.  Kd4     (0:00)     Ke6     (0:03)
> 71.  Qc5     (0:03)     Kf6     (0:01)
> 72.  Ke4     (0:01)     Ke6     (0:00)
> 73.  Qc6+    (0:01)     Kf7     (0:00)
> 74.  Ke5     (0:01)     Kg7     (0:00)
> 75.  Kf5     (0:03)     Kf7     (0:00)
> 76.  Qd7+    (0:02)     Kf8     (0:00)
> 77.  Kf6     (0:03)     Kg8     (0:00)
> 78.  Qg7+    (0:01)
>      {Black checkmated} 1-0
>
>fics% smov (????) 55
>
>LilKikr (2525) vs. (????) (2035) --- Mon Nov 20, 05:50 ??? 2000
>Rated standard match, initial time: 15 minutes, increment: 1 seconds.
>
>Move  LilKikr            (????)
>----  ----------------   ----------------
>  1.  d4      (0:02)     Nf6     (0:05)
>  2.  c4      (0:00)     e6      (0:23)
>  3.  Nc3     (0:00)     c5      (0:05)
>  4.  d5      (0:00)     exd5    (0:16)
>  5.  cxd5    (0:00)     g6      (0:19)
>  6.  e4      (0:00)     d6      (0:06)
>  7.  Nf3     (0:00)     Bg7     (0:27)
>  8.  Be2     (0:00)     O-O     (0:13)
>  9.  O-O     (0:00)     Re8     (0:25)
> 10.  Nd2     (0:00)     a6      (0:14)
> 11.  a4      (0:00)     b6      (0:17)
> 12.  f3      (0:19)     Nbd7    (0:15)
> 13.  Nc4     (0:19)     Ne5     (0:19)
> 14.  Nxe5    (1:06)     Rxe5    (0:09)
> 15.  Bc4     (0:54)     Nd7     (0:16)
> 16.  Bf4     (0:35)     Re8     (0:14)
> 17.  Qd2     (0:17)     Ne5     (0:12)
> 18.  Bb3     (0:03)     Qh4     (0:12)
> 19.  Ne2     (0:13)     h6      (0:10)
> 20.  Bg3     (0:24)     Qh5     (0:16)
> 21.  Be1     (0:12)     Nd7     (0:15)
> 22.  Qc2     (0:10)     Bb7     (0:12)
> 23.  Bc3     (0:11)     Re7     (0:21)
> 24.  Bxg7    (0:34)     Kxg7    (0:11)
> 25.  Nf4     (0:20)     Qg5     (0:39)
> 26.  g3      (0:29)     Ne5     (0:45)
> 27.  Qc3     (0:12)     b5      (0:49)
> 28.  axb5    (0:44)     axb5    (0:27)
> 29.  Rxa8    (0:32)     b4      (0:04)
> 30.  Qe3     (0:20)     Bxa8    (0:28)
> 31.  Ra1     (0:30)     Bb7     (0:23)
> 32.  Ra7     (0:28)     Qf6     (0:25)
> 33.  Kg2     (0:08)     Kh7     (0:16)
> 34.  Qe2     (0:17)     c4      (0:27)
> 35.  Ba4     (0:09)     Bc8     (0:18)
> 36.  Ra8     (0:00)     Rc7     (0:15)
> 37.  Bc2     (0:30)     Qh8     (0:47)
> 38.  Ra1     (0:26)     b3      (0:11)
> 39.  Bd1     (0:00)     g5      (0:09)
> 40.  Nh5     (0:01)     Nd3     (0:22)
> 41.  e5      (0:00)     Nxe5    (0:14)
> 42.  Rc1     (0:00)     Kg6     (0:10)
> 43.  g4      (0:28)     f5      (0:11)
> 44.  h3      (0:06)     Rc5     (0:09)
> 45.  Ra1     (0:08)     Rxd5    (0:13)
> 46.  Ra7     (0:09)     Bd7     (0:15)
> 47.  f4      (0:06)     fxg4    (0:13)
> 48.  Rxd7    (0:00)     gxh3+   (0:27)
> 49.  Kxh3    (0:17)     Rd3+    (0:08)
> 50.  Kg2     (0:28)     Qa8+    (0:13)
> 51.  Kf2     (0:06)     Qh1     (0:12)
> 52.  Rg7+    (0:05)     Kf5     (0:04)
> 53.  fxe5    (0:01)     Qh2+    (0:06)
> 54.  Kf1     (0:00)     Qh1+    (0:09)
> 55.  Kf2     (0:00)     Qh2+    (0:01)
> 56.  Kf1     (0:05)     Qh1+    (0:03)
> 57.  Kf2     (0:00)
>      {Game drawn by repetition} 1/2-1/2

Hello Andrew,

How did you get this times? As far as I know they wouldnt be saved in the
pgn-file or are you an admin at FICS?
Me for myself had just two weeks ago a much more abnormal match against
someone on ICC.My ratings there are 1650+ bullet,1900+ blitz,2000+standard
and I played 5 bullet games against another 1500er and lost 4.
That alone would be nothing to get very astonished about, but...then I took
a look at his current ratings and his history and I dropped out off my seat.
800+blitz,800+standard out of hundreds games???
Some days later he got 1850+!! in bullet all others stayed around 800 although
he played this times from time to time, normally lost all;
I accused him to be a cheater and told an admin - they are still exploring
his games, a day after that he gone down to 1400 in bullet-sounds strange.
I forgot to say that I played 2 1 bullet the slowest kind of bullet because
I am lousy slow and 2 1 is nearly blitz, so I cant believe a range of 1000
to the slowlier time games,this must be unnatural or am I totally wrong?
Last I saw he was gone back to 1800+ bullet!

With friendly regards, Günther



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