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Subject: Re: Possible computer cheater? Or just very lucky in two games?

Author: Andrew Dados

Date: 15:39:44 11/20/00

Go up one level in this thread


On November 20, 2000 at 17:33:01, Günther Simon wrote:

>On November 20, 2000 at 13:37:19, Andrew Dados wrote:
>
>>On November 20, 2000 at 09:51:16, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On November 20, 2000 at 08:51:22, Peter Skinner wrote:
>>>
>>>>Here is the person's history on FICS, and as you can see, he is NOT a very
>>>>strong player:
>>>>
>>>>                  Opponent      Type         ECO End Date
>>>>48: - 1515 W 1859 Jasiaaa       [ br  8   0] D00 Res Sun Nov 19, 09:29 CST 2000
>>>>49: - 1511 B 1715 nyknick       [ br  2  12] C00 Res Sun Nov 19, 10:23 CST 2000
>>>>50: + 1520 W 1529 objna         [ br  5  10] A40 Fla Sun Nov 19, 20:10 CST 2000
>>>>51: - 1514 B 1642 Thorax        [ br  2   4] C00 Res Sun Nov 19, 21:17 CST 2000
>>>>52: - 1506 W 1509 NinthPawn     [ br  2  12] A43 Res Sun Nov 19, 21:27 CST 2000
>>>>53: - 1546 B    0 BOOOO         [ lu  1   0] A13 Fla Sun Nov 19, 21:34 CST 2000
>>>>54: - 2035 W 2525 LilKikr       [ sr 15   1] D00 Res Mon Nov 20, 03:50 CST 2000
>>>>55: = 2114 B 2518 LilKikr       [ sr 15   1] A77 Rep Mon Nov 20, 04:18 CST 2000
>>>>56: + 2264 W 2504 LilKikr       [ sr 15   1] D18 Mat Mon Nov 20, 04:56 CST 2000
>>>>57: + 2305 W 2108 NotSoCrafty   [ sr 15   0] E10 Fla Mon Nov 20, 05:20 CST 2000
>>>>
>>>>Now notice that he was unable to beat another 1500 blitz player in a 2 12 game,
>>>>which might as well be a "standard" game over ICS as it can last forever, yet
>>>>was able to record a 2-1-1 record vs computers....
>>>>
>>>>Here are the games, even the one my computer won...
>>>>
>>>>[Event ""]
>>>>[Site ""]
>>>>[Date "2000.11.20"]
>>>>[Round ""]
>>>>[White "???"]
>>>>[Black "LilKikr"]
>>>>[Result "0-1"]
>>>>[WhiteElo "2047"]
>>>>[BlackElo "2524"]
>>>>[Opening "D00 Queen's Pawn: Stonewall Attack"]
>>>>
>>>>{Time control = 15 1 Engine book(s): ct.tbk }
>>>>1.d4 d5 2.e3 Nf6 3.Bd3 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.f4 Bg4 6.Nf3 e6 7.Nbd2 Qc7 8.h3 Bh5 9.O-O
>>>>Bd6 10.b3 cxd4
>>>>11.cxd4 O-O 12.g4 Nb4 13.Bxh7+ Nxh7 14.gxh5 Qc3 15.Ba3 Qxe3+ 16.Kh1 Qxf4 17.Qe2
>>>>Nf6 {
>>>>jkoss resigns} 0-1
>>>>
>>>>[Event ""]
>>>>[Site ""]
>>>>[Date "2000.11.20"]
>>>>[Round ""]
>>>>[White "LilKikr"]
>>>>[Black "???"]
>>>>[Result "1/2-1/2"]
>>>>[WhiteElo "2525"]
>>>>[BlackElo "2035"]
>>>>[Opening "A77 Benoni: Classical, 9...Re8, 10.Nd2"]
>>>>
>>>>{Time control = 15 1 Engine book(s): ct.tbk }
>>>>1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 g6 6.e4 d6 7.Nf3 Bg7 8.Be2 O-O 9.O-O
>>>>Re8 10.Nd2
>>>>a6 11.a4 b6 12.f3 Nbd7 13.Nc4 Ne5 14.Nxe5 Rxe5 15.Bc4 Nd7 16.Bf4 Re8 17.Qd2 Ne5
>>>>18.Bb3 Qh4
>>>>19.Ne2 h6 20.Bg3 Qh5 21.Be1 Nd7 22.Qc2 Bb7 23.Bc3 Re7 24.Bxg7 Kxg7 25.Nf4 Qg5
>>>>26.g3 Ne5
>>>>27.Qc3 b5 28.axb5 axb5 29.Rxa8 b4 30.Qe3 Bxa8 31.Ra1 Bb7 32.Ra7 Qf6 33.Kg2 Kh7
>>>>34.Qe2 c4
>>>>35.Ba4 Bc8 36.Ra8 Rc7 37.Bc2 Qh8 38.Ra1 b3 39.Bd1 g5 40.Nh5 Nd3 41.e5 Nxe5
>>>>42.Rc1 Kg6 43.g4
>>>>f5 44.h3 Rc5 45.Ra1 Rxd5 46.Ra7 Bd7 47.f4 fxg4 48.Rxd7 gxh3+ 49.Kxh3 Rd3+ 50.Kg2
>>>>Qa8+ 51.Kf2
>>>>Qh1 52.Rg7+ Kf5 53.fxe5 Qh2+ 54.Kf1 Qh1+ 55.Kf2 Qh2+ 56.Kf1 Qh1+ 57.Kf2 { Game
>>>>drawn by
>>>>repetition} 1/2-1/2
>>>>
>>>>[Event ""]
>>>>[Site ""]
>>>>[Date "2000.11.20"]
>>>>[Round ""]
>>>>[White "???"]
>>>>[Black "LilKikr"]
>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>[WhiteElo "2114"]
>>>>[BlackElo "2518"]
>>>>[Opening "D19 QGD Slav: Dutch Variation"]
>>>>
>>>>{Time control = 15 1 Engine book(s): ct.tbk }
>>>>1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 dxc4 5.a4 Bf5 6.e3 e6 7.Bxc4 Bb4 8.O-O Nbd7
>>>>9.Qe2 Bg6 10.Bd2
>>>>O-O 11.Ne4 Bxd2 12.Nexd2 Qc7 13.Rac1 Bh5 14.b4 e5 15.dxe5 Nxe5 16.Rfd1 Rad8
>>>>17.h3 Nxc4
>>>>18.Qxc4 Rd6 19.g4 Bg6 20.Nb3 Rxd1+ 21.Rxd1 Be4 22.Nfd4 Bd5 23.Qc2 Ne4 24.Nf5 Rc8
>>>>25.Nbd4
>>>>Ng5 26.f4 Nxh3+ 27.Kh2 Ng5 28.Nb5 cxb5 29.Qxc7 Rxc7 30.fxg5 Rd7 31.Rxd5 Rxd5
>>>>32.Ne7+ Kf8
>>>>33.Nxd5 bxa4 34.Kg3 a3 35.Nc3 f6 36.gxf6 gxf6 37.Kf4 Kf7 38.b5 Kg6 39.Na2 h6
>>>>40.Nb4 a6 41.b6
>>>>Kf7 42.Kf5 a5 43.Na2 Ke7 44.Kg6 Kd6 45.Kxf6 Kd5 46.Nc1 Kc4 47.Ke5 Kc3 48.Kd5 a4
>>>>49.Kc5 Kd2
>>>>50.Na2 Kc2 51.Nb4+ Kb2 52.Kb5 Kc3 53.Kxa4 Kc4 54.Kxa3 Kc5 55.Kb3 Kxb6 56.Nd5+
>>>>Kc5 57.Ne7
>>>>Kd6 58.Nf5+ Ke5 59.Nxh6 Kf6 60.e4 Kg5 61.e5 Kxh6 62.e6 Kg7 63.g5 Kf8 64.g6 Ke7
>>>>65.g7 Kxe6
>>>>66.g8Q+ Kd6 67.Qc4 b5 68.Qxb5 Ke6 69.Kc4 Kf6 70.Kd4 Ke6 71.Qc5 Kf6 72.Ke4 Ke6
>>>>73.Qc6+ Kf7
>>>>74.Ke5 Kg7 75.Kf5 Kf7 76.Qd7+ Kf8 77.Kf6 Kg8 78.Qg7# { LilKikr checkmated} 1-0
>>>>
>>>>I am blocking out his name, as I am not totally sure, but I doubt that I am
>>>>wrong in the fact this "person" cheated. He is also a former admin of FICS, so
>>>>it is actually very doubtful they will do anything to him if proven to be
>>>>guilty. By his history, you can tell he is a weak player, yet it rated 800
>>>>points higher in standard games, but is not established. His previous best in
>>>>standard was 1905.. but has not been at that level since 1998.
>>>>
>>>>What do you think?
>>>>
>>>>Btw, Lilikr(C) is a Rebel Tiger II on a PIII 500 using 96m hash tables, and
>>>>regular book. In the draw, and loss, my Tiger was really never ahead..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The history looks suspect.  It would really help if you could post the games
>>>with the time per move included.  That is a good clue.  Then annotating the
>>>games with a computer program can provide even more convincing information.
>>
>>
>>
>>Just 2 games dumped with 'smoves' command...
>>Time usage looks typical for manually operated computer program.
>>
>>(????) (2114) vs. LilKikr (2518) --- Mon Nov 20, 06:26 ??? 2000
>>Rated standard match, initial time: 15 minutes, increment: 1 seconds.
>>
>>Move  (????)              LilKikr
>>----  ----------------   ----------------
>>  1.  d4      (0:12)     d5      (0:00)
>>  2.  c4      (0:08)     c6      (0:00)
>>  3.  Nf3     (0:03)     Nf6     (0:00)
>>  4.  Nc3     (0:04)     dxc4    (0:00)
>>  5.  a4      (0:04)     Bf5     (0:00)
>>  6.  e3      (0:05)     e6      (0:00)
>>  7.  Bxc4    (0:04)     Bb4     (0:00)
>>  8.  O-O     (0:36)     Nbd7    (0:00)
>>  9.  Qe2     (0:06)     Bg6     (0:00)
>> 10.  Bd2     (0:20)     O-O     (0:00)
>> 11.  Ne4     (0:13)     Bxd2    (0:25)
>> 12.  Nexd2   (0:10)     Qc7     (0:06)
>> 13.  Rac1    (0:08)     Bh5     (0:16)
>> 14.  b4      (0:10)     e5      (0:14)
>> 15.  dxe5    (0:06)     Nxe5    (0:24)
>> 16.  Rfd1    (0:10)     Rad8    (0:16)
>> 17.  h3      (0:10)     Nxc4    (0:13)
>> 18.  Qxc4    (0:07)     Rd6     (0:41)
>> 19.  g4      (0:08)     Bg6     (0:17)
>> 20.  Nb3     (0:10)     Rxd1+   (0:17)
>> 21.  Rxd1    (0:04)     Be4     (0:19)
>> 22.  Nfd4    (0:13)     Bd5     (0:16)
>> 23.  Qc2     (0:25)     Ne4     (0:15)
>> 24.  Nf5     (0:20)     Rc8     (0:22)
>> 25.  Nbd4    (0:12)     Ng5     (0:05)
>> 26.  f4      (0:19)     Nxh3+   (0:15)
>> 27.  Kh2     (0:06)     Ng5     (0:23)
>> 28.  Nb5     (1:08)     cxb5    (0:14)
>> 29.  Qxc7    (0:07)     Rxc7    (0:17)
>> 30.  fxg5    (0:08)     Rd7     (0:23)
>> 31.  Rxd5    (0:11)     Rxd5    (0:48)
>> 32.  Ne7+    (0:02)     Kf8     (0:28)
>> 33.  Nxd5    (0:00)     bxa4    (0:03)
>> 34.  Kg3     (0:21)     a3      (0:00)
>> 35.  Nc3     (0:07)     f6      (1:05)
>> 36.  gxf6    (0:07)     gxf6    (0:07)
>> 37.  Kf4     (0:12)     Kf7     (0:10)
>> 38.  b5      (0:15)     Kg6     (0:17)
>> 39.  Na2     (0:11)     h6      (0:19)
>> 40.  Nb4     (1:24)     a6      (0:00)
>> 41.  b6      (1:12)     Kf7     (0:00)
>> 42.  Kf5     (0:14)     a5      (0:16)
>> 43.  Na2     (0:10)     Ke7     (1:00)
>> 44.  Kg6     (0:15)     Kd6     (0:00)
>> 45.  Kxf6    (0:12)     Kd5     (0:10)
>> 46.  Nc1     (1:24)     Kc4     (0:19)
>> 47.  Ke5     (0:26)     Kc3     (0:38)
>> 48.  Kd5     (0:15)     a4      (0:00)
>> 49.  Kc5     (0:24)     Kd2     (0:00)
>> 50.  Na2     (0:13)     Kc2     (0:00)
>> 51.  Nb4+    (0:15)     Kb2     (0:07)
>> 52.  Kb5     (0:12)     Kc3     (0:23)
>> 53.  Kxa4    (0:10)     Kc4     (0:00)
>> 54.  Kxa3    (0:06)     Kc5     (0:17)
>> 55.  Kb3     (0:09)     Kxb6    (0:10)
>> 56.  Nd5+    (0:10)     Kc5     (0:00)
>> 57.  Ne7     (0:10)     Kd6     (0:00)
>> 58.  Nf5+    (0:02)     Ke5     (0:04)
>> 59.  Nxh6    (0:01)     Kf6     (0:11)
>> 60.  e4      (0:08)     Kg5     (0:08)
>> 61.  e5      (0:03)     Kxh6    (0:08)
>> 62.  e6      (0:03)     Kg7     (0:11)
>> 63.  g5      (0:02)     Kf8     (0:05)
>> 64.  g6      (0:02)     Ke7     (0:07)
>> 65.  g7      (0:01)     Kxe6    (0:04)
>> 66.  g8=Q+   (0:01)     Kd6     (0:04)
>> 67.  Qc4     (0:02)     b5      (0:05)
>> 68.  Qxb5    (0:02)     Ke6     (0:02)
>> 69.  Kc4     (0:01)     Kf6     (0:05)
>> 70.  Kd4     (0:00)     Ke6     (0:03)
>> 71.  Qc5     (0:03)     Kf6     (0:01)
>> 72.  Ke4     (0:01)     Ke6     (0:00)
>> 73.  Qc6+    (0:01)     Kf7     (0:00)
>> 74.  Ke5     (0:01)     Kg7     (0:00)
>> 75.  Kf5     (0:03)     Kf7     (0:00)
>> 76.  Qd7+    (0:02)     Kf8     (0:00)
>> 77.  Kf6     (0:03)     Kg8     (0:00)
>> 78.  Qg7+    (0:01)
>>      {Black checkmated} 1-0
>>
>>fics% smov (????) 55
>>
>>LilKikr (2525) vs. (????) (2035) --- Mon Nov 20, 05:50 ??? 2000
>>Rated standard match, initial time: 15 minutes, increment: 1 seconds.
>>
>>Move  LilKikr            (????)
>>----  ----------------   ----------------
>>  1.  d4      (0:02)     Nf6     (0:05)
>>  2.  c4      (0:00)     e6      (0:23)
>>  3.  Nc3     (0:00)     c5      (0:05)
>>  4.  d5      (0:00)     exd5    (0:16)
>>  5.  cxd5    (0:00)     g6      (0:19)
>>  6.  e4      (0:00)     d6      (0:06)
>>  7.  Nf3     (0:00)     Bg7     (0:27)
>>  8.  Be2     (0:00)     O-O     (0:13)
>>  9.  O-O     (0:00)     Re8     (0:25)
>> 10.  Nd2     (0:00)     a6      (0:14)
>> 11.  a4      (0:00)     b6      (0:17)
>> 12.  f3      (0:19)     Nbd7    (0:15)
>> 13.  Nc4     (0:19)     Ne5     (0:19)
>> 14.  Nxe5    (1:06)     Rxe5    (0:09)
>> 15.  Bc4     (0:54)     Nd7     (0:16)
>> 16.  Bf4     (0:35)     Re8     (0:14)
>> 17.  Qd2     (0:17)     Ne5     (0:12)
>> 18.  Bb3     (0:03)     Qh4     (0:12)
>> 19.  Ne2     (0:13)     h6      (0:10)
>> 20.  Bg3     (0:24)     Qh5     (0:16)
>> 21.  Be1     (0:12)     Nd7     (0:15)
>> 22.  Qc2     (0:10)     Bb7     (0:12)
>> 23.  Bc3     (0:11)     Re7     (0:21)
>> 24.  Bxg7    (0:34)     Kxg7    (0:11)
>> 25.  Nf4     (0:20)     Qg5     (0:39)
>> 26.  g3      (0:29)     Ne5     (0:45)
>> 27.  Qc3     (0:12)     b5      (0:49)
>> 28.  axb5    (0:44)     axb5    (0:27)
>> 29.  Rxa8    (0:32)     b4      (0:04)
>> 30.  Qe3     (0:20)     Bxa8    (0:28)
>> 31.  Ra1     (0:30)     Bb7     (0:23)
>> 32.  Ra7     (0:28)     Qf6     (0:25)
>> 33.  Kg2     (0:08)     Kh7     (0:16)
>> 34.  Qe2     (0:17)     c4      (0:27)
>> 35.  Ba4     (0:09)     Bc8     (0:18)
>> 36.  Ra8     (0:00)     Rc7     (0:15)
>> 37.  Bc2     (0:30)     Qh8     (0:47)
>> 38.  Ra1     (0:26)     b3      (0:11)
>> 39.  Bd1     (0:00)     g5      (0:09)
>> 40.  Nh5     (0:01)     Nd3     (0:22)
>> 41.  e5      (0:00)     Nxe5    (0:14)
>> 42.  Rc1     (0:00)     Kg6     (0:10)
>> 43.  g4      (0:28)     f5      (0:11)
>> 44.  h3      (0:06)     Rc5     (0:09)
>> 45.  Ra1     (0:08)     Rxd5    (0:13)
>> 46.  Ra7     (0:09)     Bd7     (0:15)
>> 47.  f4      (0:06)     fxg4    (0:13)
>> 48.  Rxd7    (0:00)     gxh3+   (0:27)
>> 49.  Kxh3    (0:17)     Rd3+    (0:08)
>> 50.  Kg2     (0:28)     Qa8+    (0:13)
>> 51.  Kf2     (0:06)     Qh1     (0:12)
>> 52.  Rg7+    (0:05)     Kf5     (0:04)
>> 53.  fxe5    (0:01)     Qh2+    (0:06)
>> 54.  Kf1     (0:00)     Qh1+    (0:09)
>> 55.  Kf2     (0:00)     Qh2+    (0:01)
>> 56.  Kf1     (0:05)     Qh1+    (0:03)
>> 57.  Kf2     (0:00)
>>      {Game drawn by repetition} 1/2-1/2
>
>Hello Andrew,
>
>How did you get this times? As far as I know they wouldnt be saved in the
>pgn-file or are you an admin at FICS?
>Me for myself had just two weeks ago a much more abnormal match against
>someone on ICC.My ratings there are 1650+ bullet,1900+ blitz,2000+standard
>and I played 5 bullet games against another 1500er and lost 4.
>That alone would be nothing to get very astonished about, but...then I took
>a look at his current ratings and his history and I dropped out off my seat.
>800+blitz,800+standard out of hundreds games???
>Some days later he got 1850+!! in bullet all others stayed around 800 although
>he played this times from time to time, normally lost all;
>I accused him to be a cheater and told an admin - they are still exploring
>his games, a day after that he gone down to 1400 in bullet-sounds strange.
>I forgot to say that I played 2 1 bullet the slowest kind of bullet because
>I am lousy slow and 2 1 is nearly blitz, so I cant believe a range of 1000
>to the slowlier time games,this must be unnatural or am I totally wrong?
>Last I saw he was gone back to 1800+ bullet!
>
>With friendly regards, Günther

Hi Gunther.
You get such an output from chess servers by using command 'smoves <player>
<history number>'. Some interfaces may not show icc output though, but parse it
autommatically. Not sure about blitzin. Winboard and slics show it the way I
posted, btw.

-Andrew-



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